Josh Arieh: "Biggest mistake amateurs make"

[Ed Miller]

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Pot-size management... do any of you know a good site that elaborates on that?

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David's and my NL book (coming soon) will discuss pot size management in-depth. It is, perhaps, the most central (and poorly understood by amateurs) concept to successful deep stack NL play.

[bsheck]

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(FWIW, I think I say that in an SSH footnote somewhere.)

[/ QUOTE ] You do. I'm not sure the page number, but you mention that it's not even correct to classify AK as a "drawing hand" because it can often win against 1 or 2 opponents unimproved.

[Ed Miller]

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(FWIW, I think I say that in an SSH footnote somewhere.)

[/ QUOTE ] You do. I'm not sure the page number, but you mention that it's not even correct to classify AK as a "drawing hand" because it can often win against 1 or 2 opponents unimproved.

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Deep stack no limit screws with hand values so much compared to limit hold 'em that the "drawing" versus "non-drawing" distinction, virtually useless in limit becomes entirely useless in deep stack no limit.

In general, preflop hand values mean most in short stack situations and least in deep stack ones. The smaller a percentage of the total money that goes in preflop, the less it matters whether you started with ace-king or ten-seven.

[Xhad]

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Please explain your implication that AK is not a drawing hand.

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Ace-high is often the best hand, preflop and post-flop, and if you read hands well (and are in a position to do so) you can frequently tell when the latter happens. Now that I think about it a little further I guess that makes it more appropriate to say "AK isn't always a drawing hand."

[goochpkt2002]

Thanks for the clarification on my citation of SSHE. The point you make here, however, is precisely why I would advocate raising pre flop out of position even in deep stacked NL games against limpers. With AK you would have to think you have the edge and thus want to narrow the field, push your edge, and get more money in preflop. Perhaps I've missed something though.

[RussianBear]

I've been hearing about that book for a long time. It would be nice if it came out while I still had a bankroll left.

[Ed Miller]

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I've been hearing about that book for a long time. It would be nice if it came out while I still had a bankroll left.

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I know, I know.

[ianlippert]

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Deep stack no limit screws with hand values so much compared to limit hold 'em that the "drawing" versus "non-drawing" distinction, virtually useless in limit becomes entirely useless in deep stack no limit.


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I like this quote, and cant wait for your book as I've just made the switch from limit to NL. One thing about NL is that if AK is a drawing hand, then the only hands that arent 'drawing' hands are QQ-AA and mabey 99-JJ. Every other hand is trying to draw to something, whether its a pair or a set. Post flop play in holdem is always marginal and you never have the safety that limit poker provides you.

[MikeLowry]

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Further, on pg 584 of SS2, Brunson advocates raising with AK from every position, calling reraises and even coming over the top of a reraise in certain situations. I think it's clear that raising with AK against limpers is the move with +EV. In regards to whether it's a drawing hand, we're arguing over language and how such a hand is defined.




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1) That information was written over thirty years ago. The game has evolved since that NLHE section was written. Players are more aggressive and aren't easily pushed around anymore. I saw an interview w/ DB a few months ago and said the same thing.

2) Doyle Brunson I'm sure is an excellent post flop player who can easily get away from tough hands with his stack intact.

3) If you come over the top of a reraise on the internet or any small stakes NLHE games w/ just AK you will be looking at big pairs way too much. I hope you don't mind losing money.

I am in no way an expert NLHE player but, I think I have a good feel for the game. Playing top pair hands over aggressively OOP will only win you small pots and cost you tons when you lose. Once the Sklansky/Miller book comes out I think we will all be introduced to concepts never mentioned in writing before about NL/PL poker. Can't wait till it comes out Ed.

-ML

[Xhad]

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3) If you come over the top of a reraise on the internet or any small stakes NLHE games w/ just AK you will be looking at big pairs way too much. I hope you don't mind losing money.

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Eh? I see people call off their entire stacks preflop with hands like AJ and KQ all the time. If we're going to talk about problems specific to small stakes then worry about the fact that people will often stack off with 77-99 whether it's warranted or not.

EDIT: Oh, wait, you're talking about raising someone who's already 3bet preflop. Nevermind, you're right.