Davidross trip report...Long - Page 3

Myrtle · #21 08-03-2006, 09:51 PM

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I thought his bet screamed of a hand like 99-JJ. Maybe AQ but as you say probably a vulnerable pair and he doesn't want a call. He was 3 off the button and had at least double my stack. I'd only been there 2 orbits, but my reads were that he was as intimidated by all the action players as I was and wanted to avoid them by over-raising.

I was quite willing to run a race or I would have folded. But I do think a smaller bet would have sold my hand as AA or KK better, and maybe gave me some folding equity.

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Well......

OK, you read his overbet at the time for what it was, right?

I'm reading into your "I was quite willing to run a race or I would have folded." statement, that your overall read on the table was that you felt that a race in this situation (given your read on his overbet) gave you the best chance for survival/advancing?

You may be right that a smaller bet might have 'sold' your hand better as a monster, but do you think he would lay it down if you did that?

In the end, you put him on a hand correctly, shut out the rest of the table, considered your overall table stature, and decided the race was the right move.

Gee, I don't see any bad thinking on your part here?

It sucks to lose the race, but........you know the rest.

MrDannimal · #22 08-03-2006, 09:56 PM

I'd forgotten just how much I missed these. The days of the weekly davidross post...

Scooterdoo · #23 08-03-2006, 11:45 PM

Great post. Sounds like you had a great time and played some great poker. Your observations and reads were first rate. Not sure if I understand the logic in your AK hand though. I might have played it the exact same way, however, it's always easier to look at it from a distance after having time to think about it. The fact was that he made a big overbet which you read correctly as either AK, or a pair in the QQ-TT range. You also correctly assumed that he liked his hand and was committed to the pot, so it seemed pretty likely that you either had the same hand (least likely), you were in a race (most likely), or just possibly he was trying to represent a JJ-88 type hand and he really had a monter (KK/AA). While you were frustrated at your table and couldn't get anything going, you certainly had plenty of play left. Why risk all of your great play when your likely outcome was a coin flip? Now don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to say you played it badly or that I could have gotten away from the hand. However, if you really felt that he was tied to the hand possibly the best play would be to just call and see what happened on the flop. Given the Q, you could have bowed out gracefully or there was a decent chance that push would have won the pot. Anyway, great report and better luck next year.

* I got knocked out last year by JJ too.

Myrtle · #24 08-04-2006, 06:55 AM

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Great post. Sounds like you had a great time and played some great poker. Your observations and reads were first rate. Not sure if I understand the logic in your AK hand though. I might have played it the exact same way, however, it's always easier to look at it from a distance after having time to think about it. The fact was that he made a big overbet which you read correctly as either AK, or a pair in the QQ-TT range. You also correctly assumed that he liked his hand and was committed to the pot, so it seemed pretty likely that you either had the same hand (least likely), you were in a race (most likely), or just possibly he was trying to represent a JJ-88 type hand and he really had a monter (KK/AA). While you were frustrated at your table and couldn't get anything going, you certainly had plenty of play left. Why risk all of your great play when your likely outcome was a coin flip? Now don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to say you played it badly or that I could have gotten away from the hand. However, if you really felt that he was tied to the hand possibly the best play would be to just call and see what happened on the flop. Given the Q, you could have bowed out gracefully or there was a decent chance that push would have won the pot. Anyway, great report and better luck next year.

* I got knocked out last year by JJ too.

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Scooter,

DR's description of the 'table play' is key here, methinks.

Wouldn't a flat call on Davids' part invite one of the other bigger stacks behind him to play back at both he & the original raiser?

If that were to come about, then what does he do? Calling off all of your chips with AK vs. two players is not an envious position.

Scooterdoo · #25 08-04-2006, 05:22 PM

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Scooter,

DR's description of the 'table play' is key here, methinks.

Wouldn't a flat call on Davids' part invite one of the other bigger stacks behind him to play back at both he & the original raiser?

If that were to come about, then what does he do? Calling off all of your chips with AK vs. two players is not an envious position.

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I too have trouble with AK and have recently been spending time thinking about the best way to stay out of trouble with it. I think that it's a great hand to play strongly when short-stacked and when play against a short-stack. It's also a great hand to open aggressively with. The difficulty is in situations like this where there is a raise in front of you. I think the time to play back at the raiser (as opposed to just calling or possibly even folding) is when there is high likelihood that the raiser is playing Ax or if you believe there is substantial folding equity. I don't think it's good to pop back if you believe the raiser is committed to his hand and he likely has a pair. In this situation the large raise seemed to telegraph a 99-JJ type pair and David felt strongly that the raiser was unlikely to fold.

Now lets say he did flat call. If someone else pushed, then it comes down to what the original raiser does. If he calls then it's an easy fold. If he folds then I believe calling makes sense because we can assume that the guy making the reraise is on a move and we are now in a favorable situation.

In cash games I used to love to rereaise with AK from position but I have recently been flat calling. I think it's best to keep the pot smaller and if you do hit you have much more deception going for you. When you reraise then what do you do when you miss? Usually you are obligated to put in your continuation bet, but the better players realize this and often flat call and then you're stuck with junk and what next?

Just checked the live updates on Cardplayer and it shows this hand:

"Juan Carlos Mortensen raises to $5,000 from under-the-gun and is re-raised to $15,500 by Eric Molina in middle position. Mortensen thinks for a bit before folding AK face up."

Now there are no chip counts but it does show you that even a hyperaggressive player like Mortensen is willing to lay it down. There's no shame in avoiding a race if you have a good chip stack. Mortensen probably also felt there was a strong possibility that the opponent had AA/KK, but still; AK is not a hand that you want to put your tournament life on the line with if you don't have to.