I am probably one of the worst 10/20 players this week

[MDMA]

I think people are vastly overestimating the times he has QQ here (unless edge is real crazyass lag getting out of line regularly with 4-bets preflop), and I would be simply amazed if he EVER had AK here at all. "Let's call 750 straight and checkfold on 70% of the flops and probably get stacked off most times when we do hit only to find out we were owned anyway)

[cero_z]

Hi edge,
[ QUOTE ]
Preflop is kind of weird since it's a steal situation. My raise means any pair, any suited connector, any suited Broadway, etc.

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You don't seem to realize how bad your pre-flop line is, especially against the tight player you describe. Also, almost all of the hands contained in the range that you feel you are representing with a reraise are the worst candidates for pre-flop 4-bets.

[cero_z]

Hi MDMA,
[ QUOTE ]
I think people are vastly overestimating the times he has QQ here (unless edge is real crazyass lag getting out of line regularly with 4-bets preflop), and I would be simply amazed if he EVER had AK here at all. "Let's call 750 straight and checkfold on 70% of the flops and probably get stacked off most times when we do hit only to find out we were owned anyway)

[/ QUOTE ]

How about if he's played with OP some, and has had the opportunity to witness a pre-flop 4-bet from him with a hand as mind-numbingly bad (in that situation) as 99 or KQs?

[MDMA]

Hi Cero_z,

That is pretty much what my

[ QUOTE ]
Oh my did that preflop 4-bet royally [censored] up this hand. How does villain view you? This is VERY important as in regards to what he would ever cold-call that 750 with. For a LOT (most of them) of players (this against all but the most loose/aggro of players, e.g B-Buddy types), this would be AA or KK ONLY

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post said earlier in the thread, as well as my "(unless edge is real crazyass lag getting out of line regularly with 4-bets preflop)"-part in my last message said, although a bit overdramatized. If this scenario, or rather the one you presented, had been the case, I think OP should/would have presented us with that history, rather than just writing

[ QUOTE ]
I have logged a lot of hands with Villain, but no strong read. This means he's just another one of those multitabling straightforward TAG-type players"

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I think we are agreeing on this really, only you didn't notice my earlier post or something like that [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Anyway, nice to see your still posting, have and always will hold your posts in high regard.

[cero_z]

Hi MDMA,

From your tone, it seems like you think I disagree with your advice. My response to your post was intended to show edge how big a mistake it'd be to assume he was beaten here.

If he knows that edge takes this limit mentality of expressing the value of your hand in on a linear scale with each bet in a steal situation (1st bet=anything, 3-bet="maybe you're stealing", 4-bet="no, I really have some legit hand" 5-bet="I can beat a lot of legit hands", 6-bet (lol)= "I have a top two or three hand"), then he's going to be calling a 4-bet with a few more hands than would be prudent against a more competent NL approach.

But even if he's just a standard player, then he's normally at 2 levels of tightness: a)call that 4-bet with AA/KK. In this spot, we're a 2:1 favorite to have the best hand, and can probably win good money (if not his whole stack) when our set is good.
b)call w/ a wider range, which if it includes QQ, almost certainly includes JJ, and probably TT, AKs, as well as some other hands. Even with those listed, we're back to being at least a 2:1 favorite to be way in front, and we can win some money for sure against that range. Folding this flop is criminal, as is checking. We should be looking to get it all-in on this street, or on the flop+turn combined.

[MDMA]

Yeah, allright, then I did misunderstood you, sorry for that. And yes, the idea presented of giving 2-beting/3-beting and so on a linear scale of what kind of hand you're trying to represent, stolen from fixed, is clearly an interesting one, and was well worthwhile reading [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

FWIW, I think most, if not all, players of these sterotypical multitabling tags are of the first group in tightness facing a large 4-bet with these stacks out of position, until OP has given[shown] them a reason to change this approach.

[Hoopster81]

cero,

[ QUOTE ]
Stats around 27/15/4.

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I play the 600 game, but there are a few people exactly like this villain that 3-bet me mercilessly with trash when I open-raise CO/Button (my image is more like 20/10ish) and pot all flops. I feel like 4-betting occasionally with hands like 99, JTs, (and then obviously AA/KK) is the best way to keep them in line. At this level, I expect them to fold everything but AA/KK/maybe QQ. Do you think this is the wrong approach?

Thanks

[edge]

Well, I almost never put in a third raise preflop. This opponent probably hasn't seen me do it. However, the general texture of Party 10/20 6-max, at least among the regulars, is that reraises out of position usually indicate a top hand (TT/AQs/AKo or better), and I believe this guy's reraising range to be about the same. With the blind steal situation, that can be expanded a little bit: say 77/ATs/AQo. But since he has never seen me come over the top of a reraise before, it's pretty tough to call with JJ and hope I'm stealing, considering that I seem to be fairly straightforward preflop. He'd be forced to call off his stack where any board without a J could easily lead to him being behind. He doesn't have anywhere near set odds either, so he would have to believe JJ is a better hand than mine a good portion of the time.

It's possible that he is holding a hand other than AA/KK/QQ/AK, but is he going to give me action? Clearly he didn't flop a set with a weaker pair, and this board doesn't look great for TT or JJ. I'm not checking the flop because I'm assuming that I'm behind (simple probability combined with the way I think he plays preflop leads me to put him on AA as the most likely hand), but because I don't think he will give me action unless he does indeed have KK or QQ. Just as I don't think he will give me action without a set, he shouldn't expect that his AK or JJ will be good if we get all-in on the flop, regardless of what he thought preflop. The only hand I can see getting in with that I beat is KQ, but I don't see him calling 500 more out of position with KQs. Even AA would have to be wary of KK or QQ, and with the preflop ranges of most of the 10/20 regulars, those would have to be the most likely hands for me to hold if he had AA. Again, I could have AK to his AA, but I'd be behind everything and so wouldn't end up getting all-in.

Cero, I still don't understand quite what you mean by the linear scale--could you explain that a bit more?

[edge]

[ QUOTE ]
cero,

[ QUOTE ]
Stats around 27/15/4.

[/ QUOTE ]

I play the 600 game, but there are a few people exactly like this villain that 3-bet me mercilessly with trash when I open-raise CO/Button (my image is more like 20/10ish) and pot all flops. I feel like 4-betting occasionally with hands like 99, JTs, (and then obviously AA/KK) is the best way to keep them in line. At this level, I expect them to fold everything but AA/KK/maybe QQ. Do you think this is the wrong approach?

Thanks

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99 isn't a good hand to do it with [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Seriously though, I think the best hands to pull a 3-raise steal with would be anything with an Ace or a low/medium suited connector.

[cero_z]

Hi edge,

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not checking the flop because I'm assuming that I'm behind (simple probability combined with the way I think he plays preflop leads me to put him on AA as the most likely hand), but because I don't think he will give me action unless he does indeed have KK or QQ. Just as I don't think he will give me action without a set, he shouldn't expect that his AK or JJ will be good if we get all-in on the flop, regardless of what he thought preflop.

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Right. I understand why the post-flop action is worrisome for you, but oh well--there's 1500 in the pot already, and you have 2500 left. It's too late to try to keep from getting stacked here. Your stack has got to go in. I assume this is what aba20 meant when he said he doesn't worry about getting undersetted in a 4-bet pot. He might be worried, but the huge pot that's created has to take precedence over that fear. And, that same (correct) line of thinking will make it tough to get away from AA/AK, and may tempt Villain to move with TT/JJ, hoping for a fold sometimes and 6 outs twice when called.

The linear scale thing was just the way that blind-stealing situations can be analyzed in limit, and my point was that that would be a bad model for NL thinking, since in limit, each successive bet is the same size as the one before/after it.