Ask Noah About First Year of Law School, Getting inTop 10%, Law Review

[XXXNoahXXX]

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I was going to start my own thread asking about law school, but people here seem to have a good idea of whats going on.

Here is my situation: I am going into my 4th year of undergrad at UBC (British Columbia, Canada). I don't know my actual GPA, but grades are typically 80-82% over the past 3 years (anywhere from 70%-95% for specific courses, and I have a lot of extra credits, so it would go up if I get to drop my lower ones). I'm taking a Bachelor of Commerce with a concentration in Real Estate. I took the LSAT in June and got 165 (92nd). All my studying was reading a book and taking 2 practise tests, and I'm quite convinced I could get 170+ if I wanted to put real effort into studying and took it again. My extra curriculars are reasonable, and I've had summer work every year except for one where I played poker. I currently work for a lawyer - he isn't actually practising law though, and I am doing real estate related work for him.

Originally I planned just to go back to UBC for law, butI have received a few emails from different law schools from the States (Richmond and Minnesota to name a couple), and that got me thinking. It would be really cool to experience a new place, especially somewhere with decent weather in the winter. What kind of schools would I be able to get into with my kinda stats? How about if I retook the LSATs?

It would be MUCH cheaper to attend UBC. Tuition there would be $9000 for the year. I would be an international student anywhere in the states. The money isn't a huge concern, but it does matter.

Basically I'm just looking for any sort of advice on what, in your guys' opinions, would I enjoy most? Where could I reasonably expect to get accepted? What makes the most sense for my future?

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I know 2+2er TeddyFBI is Canadian and went to law school (he dropped out), maybe PM him, although he refers to law as "soul-sucking" so take it with a grain of salt.



User NeonClaws is currently going to U. of British Columbia Law School.


There's more, try searching.

As for the other part of your post, yes, if you really can get in the 170s then retake the LSAT. I'm not sure how Canadian applicants are received or how grades translate, but I know that:

Me: 3.5 GPA, 172 LSAT, tons of extracurriculars, work, etc.
College Roommate: 3.5 GPA, 160 LSAT, tons of extracurriculars, work, etc.

Me: Columbia, Georgetown, BC $$$, Notre Dame $$$, etc.
College Roommate: Cardoza, UCONN, Brooklyn, Fordham PT waitlist.


This just shows you how important the LSAT is, and although, obviously that was a wide gap, I'd retake the LSAT if I thought I could get 3-5 pts higher ESPECIALLY if it doesn't even require you to delay application.

Schools are all about boosting their USNEWS rankings and average LSAT, so two pts above their avg >>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;>two pts. below.

[Aces McGee]

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This just shows you how important the LSAT is, and although, obviously that was a wide gap, I'd retake the LSAT if I thought I could get 3-5 pts higher ESPECIALLY if it doesn't even require you to delay application.

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Don't most schools take the average, though?

I had been scoring an average of 172 on my timed practice tests, but ended up with 167 (my second worst score EVER!) on the actual exam. However, I decided not to retake it because I felt like I couldn't expect anything better than my average practice score, which wouldn't boost my score more than a couple points. It didn't seem like it would help me much.

So even if he scored a 170 the second time around, he'd still be at a 167 or or 168 average. Are those extra points really that valuable?

-McGee

[XXXNoahXXX]

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This just shows you how important the LSAT is, and although, obviously that was a wide gap, I'd retake the LSAT if I thought I could get 3-5 pts higher ESPECIALLY if it doesn't even require you to delay application.

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Don't most schools take the average, though?

I had been scoring an average of 172 on my timed practice tests, but ended up with 167 (my second worst score EVER!) on the actual exam. However, I decided not to retake it because I felt like I couldn't expect anything better than my average practice score, which wouldn't boost my score more than a couple points. It didn't seem like it would help me much.

So even if he scored a 170 the second time around, he'd still be at a 167 or or 168 average. Are those extra points really that valuable?

-McGee

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Depends on your goals, etc. A lot of schools take average, but the trend is more and more to take the higher.

Maybe 5+, not so much 3 pts. my range might have been a bit low.

Also, schools see all scores regardless, so if you had a 167 (great score) and you took it again, it demonstrates that you strive towards excellence, and getting a 172+ would demonstrate that.

Maybe it isn't worth it to delay a year, but if you took it in June and got a 167 and think you can get a 172+ in September, by all means, do it.

[Scotty.]

Does anyone have any idea approximately where UBC would rank in the USNews rankings if it included Canadian schools as well? How about U of Victoria and U of Toronto (a couple others I was considering)? I just want to get kind of an idea as to which places I may want to consider if I get accepted due to the fact that the education quality/opportunies/prestige is that much higher.

[owsley]

this is a really general question, but how does being a varsity athlete factor into this numbers game? all of these GPA numbers that are thrown around for the top 10 law schools are close to impossible for athletes. I am sure it gets factored in somehow but can anyone give specifics on how? this would be for a athlete at an ivy (aka me).

[NickMPK]

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this is a really general question, but how does being a varsity athlete factor into this numbers game? all of these GPA numbers that are thrown around for the top 10 law schools are close to impossible for athletes. I am sure it gets factored in somehow but can anyone give specifics on how? this would be for a athlete at an ivy (aka me).

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When I was applying, my understanding was that college extracurriculars were virtually meaningless for getting into law school, except perhaps as material for your essay.

[XXXNoahXXX]

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this is a really general question, but how does being a varsity athlete factor into this numbers game? all of these GPA numbers that are thrown around for the top 10 law schools are close to impossible for athletes. I am sure it gets factored in somehow but can anyone give specifics on how? this would be for a athlete at an ivy (aka me).

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When I was applying, my understanding was that college extracurriculars were virtually meaningless for getting into law school, except perhaps as material for your essay.

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although this is true, i do think that if your resume contains something about how you spent 40 hours week in practice/etc. it will make your GPA look more impressive, a lot more so than president of the asian culture club or something.

Still not a huge deal though I bet. Does your UG have a law school? if so, might be a good place to start.

[remi983]

Noah, can you offer any info about the dating life in law school? Is it really that different from dating undergrad chicks?

[XXXNoahXXX]

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Noah, can you offer any info about the dating life in law school? Is it really that different from dating undergrad chicks?

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People act like once you get to law school there is no social life of any kind, but that is definitely not the case. If you accepted every invitation, attended every bar review that was sent out via e-mail or mentioned before class, you could be out drinking every night of the week.

Since most law schools are smaller, I think it might be weird to date someone from law school, especially your own section, but people do it. Since it is such a small group and you spend a lot of time together, some people draw comparisons to high school dating drama and gossip, so sleeping around like you did in UG might get a bit awkward.

There definitely still are some law school couples though, which is pretty cool I guess. Not many study partners get to study torts for three hours then take a study break to screw.

My law school shares some facilities with freshman at the UG, so there are tons of 18 yr olds walking around, and if I was single I'd be tempted to try and relive my UG dorm room sexual escapades, but alas its a no go.

If you are looking to find a girlfriend, I recommend looking outside law school. If you date someone from law school, you will constantly be talking about class when you're trying to relax. Its nice that my gf isn't, and she lets me know when I'm blathering on about law school stuff too much. Most law schools are in cities, moreso than UG, so just hit up the local market. Sometimes it is tough because you're now a full time student and people your age all have working jobs, so wining and dining too much isn't going to fly, but I recommend finding a nice girl in some unrelated grad school, upperlevel UG or something.

Not sure if this answer makes sense.

[Dave D]

Just wanted to add that just about everything Noah has said has been pretty solid advice. I think I disagree with him about outlining though. I didn't first semester and just used other peoples, and second semester made my own for most classes and I think it helped. Basically, once I had made my own outline I barely looked at it anymore, becaause it was the process of making it that mattered, not the document itself.

Also, 50-75 page outlines make no sense to me. Thats literally about how many pages of notes (typed) I had (maybe 90 pages tops). The purpose of an outline is to sumarize the notes, the notes should be a summary of what's said in class. So the outline is a summary of a summary, the best one is probably no more than 30 pages, and mine were usually about 20 for a year's worth of material.

Also, I didn't bring my laptop to class. Lots of people talk on AIM/shop for clothes or whatever, and I just didn't want to be distracted. I also like taking notes by hand. I think people complaining about not being able to write fast enough is crap. For me, taking notes is listening to what's being said and trying to get the content down, not trascribing. I would then later type my notes up (like at the end of the week) and end up summarizing those too some. So really my ouline was a summary of a summary of a summary.

Also someone asked about GPA. My college GPA was a 2.6, my lsat was a 156. I had a really rough first two years of college (I was sick a lot, I ended up having sinus surgery after junior year, I just thought I had a weak immune system and was extra sensative to seasonal alergies). My senior year I had a 3.3 both semesters, and I forget what my junior year was but it was around a 3. Law schools like seeing improvement, and I still managed to get in somewhere decent.

If you're grades suck, as Noah said, take some time off. You wont be behind (average law school age is 26) and it puts some distance between you and bad grades.