Attn Iron, re: Nielso

[MrWookie]

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I keep typing long posts about this like people should care what I think. Both here and in ATF. And I keep deleting them, because I either don't feel qualified to post them or because I hate to jump into the fray. But here are my basic thoughts:

- Politics seems to bring out the worst in posters on this site, many of whom are valued strat contributors
- there seems to be no Politics "community", meaning if it was wiped tomorrow nobody would leave this site (in fact, ATF traffic may quadruple)
- as sweet as iron's moderation seems to be, this forum causes residual problems for other, arguably more important (strat) forums

Conclusion:

- get rid of Politics forum once and for all

That said, what little I've participated in that forum everyone seems to be helpful, but I wonder if the net benefit is greater than its detriment as it pertains to 2+2 in general, and whether posters are just nice because they don't hate me like they do each other. It's like an anti-community.

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Tub,

There's a big, burning problem with your suggestion. Let's assume what you say is true, that politics posters won't leave the site if the forum is wiped. There's evidence for this being the case, since, when the forum was actually closed, they mostly stuck around. So, then we're left with a bunch of posters on this site who adamantly and fervently want to "discuss" politics, and they're still posting in the 2+2 OT forums rather than going to some other site. So, what happens? Do they simply give up posting about politics at all? No, not at all. Instead, political posts start infiltrating OOT, the Lounge, and EDF, either by way of people starting political threads, or by hijacking non-political ones. We cautiously allowed some political posts in the Lounge when politics was closed, and it worked out OK. OTOH, the topics and tone had to be carefully monitored by the mods -- it was a lot of trouble for me.

I look at politics in largely the same way as I look at BBV/4L. It's a dumping ground where all the garbage posts can be concentrated. Some people really seem to love swirling cesspools, though, and so they keep it thriving even when the source forums don't have as much trash to dump into them. And furthermore, every now and then, someone does manage to find treasure amidst the trash.

One thing I learned from my mom when I was growing up was a good means for dealing with problem children who were acting out. Rather than just telling/ordering/forcing/bribing/whatever them to stop, it's much more effective to tell them to stop, and then give them something else to do, the key being that it's a related activity that's constructive, or at least not harmful. No, don't bounce the tennis ball off the windows; here, throw it against that wall instead. No, don't hit your sister; here, take this inflatable punching bag and have at it. They're not perfect examples, and of course this sort of thing doesn't work absolutely every time, but I think you can get the idea. The same sort of thing applies to forum posters behaving badly. No, don't fanatically argue your extremist theories in OOT; here, take them over to this other forum. If you take away the positive diversion, you're left with a bunch of kids who might stay in line for a little while, but eventually they're going to get the itch to do whatever it was they were doing and break the rules again.

Closing politics isn't going to really get us what we want. Since you said yourself that the posters will still be here, we'll still be dealing with a bunch of problematic posters who'll try and find a home for everything we hate about politics. They'll keep doing this until we eventually ban them all, in which case we've wiped a whole bunch of traffic off of here. The politics forum is bad, sure, but having it makes all the other forums better.

[iron81]

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fwiw, Nielso agrees to not post in Politics anymore if he can have his old account back.

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I'd consider it, but to my knowldege, exile is only for OOT. A search I just did did not reveal any posters who were exiled from any other forums and I can't think of any. Exile is specifically forbidden for BBV & BBV4Life.

Even if its possible, Nielsio is a poor candidate. 2/3rds of his posts are in Politics and I still think it's bizarre you guys think he's a good strat poster.

One more thing, I'm not going to let you guys look down your nose at me any more. The idea that Politics is a trash bin and that someone who has wrecked thread after thread and driven away poster after poster should be spared because he makes a few crappy strat threads is bull. Politics can be done well and banning Nielsio is an excellent step in that direction. I have the same commitment to quality as the rest of you and there is a lot of quality in Politics. Hopefully, now there will be more.

Oh, and how is Nielsio talking to you guys?

[Leader]

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I'd consider it, but to my knowldege, exile is only for OOT. A search I just did did not reveal any posters who were exiled from any other forums and I can't think of any. Exile is specifically forbidden for BBV & BBV4Life.

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I know of at least one poster how is "exiled" from STT FWIW.

[Leader]

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I'd consider it, but to my knowldege, exile is only for OOT. A search I just did did not reveal any posters who were exiled from any other forums and I can't think of any. Exile is specifically forbidden for BBV & BBV4Life.

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I know of at least one poster how is "exiled" from STT FWIW.

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FYI, It is Indiana http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/ad....php?uid=14835

It's pretty far down in the mod notes. He's also exiled from OOT. He's a pretty good poster in HU though (not perfect obv.).

[El Diablo]

Iron: I'm not really familiar with this poster in either Politics or strat, and I have no opinion as to which side is in the right here, but I just wanted to say that I like your attitude and posts in this thread. Good job.

Wookie: "Instead, political posts start infiltrating OOT, the Lounge, and EDF" I also have no opinion regarding whether or not politics is kept or closed. I don't care, as I don't read it. However, I did want to say that I don't agree w/ your position that closing the forum would result in problems for other forums. We didn't and don't have any problem with politics posts or politics posters in EDF.

[NT!]

lol, for those who feel like clicking iron's link, here's one of his 'excellent' recent strat posts. the comments from other posters indicate that they have an equally high esteem for him. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

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Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $1/$2 Blinds - 6 Players - (LegoPoker Hand History Converter)

SB: $348.25
BB: $212.65
UTG: $238.30
MP: $240.85
CO: $47.20
Hero (BTN): $203.35

Preflop: Hero is dealt K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (6 Players)
3 folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $6.00</font>, SB calls $5.00, BB folds

Flop: ($14) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
SB checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($14) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">SB bets $7.00</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $14.00</font>, SB calls $7.00

River: ($42) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
SB checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $15.00</font>, <font color="red">SB raises to $45.00</font>, Hero calls $30.00

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do strat mods just call anyone from their forum an 'excellent' strat poster if they recognize their name?

i say bravo iron, stick up for yourself for once.

[Leader]

The problem with what he did in that thread is not that he posted a hand in which he played badly. We all play badly from time to time, or most of the time in my case. The correct play is a lot clearer after five people tell you what it is or call your attention to something you really weren't thinking about. A strat forum would suck if people just posted hands that they played well.

What he did wrong here was post a hand and when he didn't get the answer that he wanted, he piled up a bunch of ex-post-facto information like the timing tell comment and the results to try to make him look right. This just pisses people off that put effort into replying. If that's his SOP then it kind of sucks. However, his second post in that thread doesn't seem that bad (should be noted that I don't play NL).

[daryn]

yeah iron don't flake baby

[jman220]

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Nielsio is a raving lunatic. He gives my forum a bad name and that's saying something.

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A lunatic he may be, but I don't think we should be permabanning people for their opinions. I agree with what other mods have said here, a lot of the mod notes on nielsio are from me, I've certainly temp banned him plenty, but I don't think he should be perma-banned, and I didn't think you were in the business of banning people from politics because a majority of posters disagreed with their ideas (extreme as they may be). If he really went overboard, a long temp-ban is in order, maybe a few weeks, to let him think about how he posts in the future, IMHO.

While Nielsio has continually spewed his very very far-right ultra anti government views, he has never spewed hate, never denigrated a religion or a people (that I've seen), never engaged in personal attacks, etc. etc. IMO, he deserves a ban less than many in that forum.

[ama0330]

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fwiw, Nielso agrees to not post in Politics anymore if he can have his old account back.

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The goal of SSNL is to help people play better poker, and there is no doubt that Nielso's strat posts make him a valued member of this forum. I remember he posted a video not so long ago that I found to be very beneficial - it seems as though he is more than willing to make an effort to contribute to SSNL as a strat poster.

I don't venture into the politics forum much because I'd rather punch myself repeatedly in the crotch, but from what I've read in this thread it seems as though Nielso has some pretty radical and forceful political opinions. It also seems as though his posting style and frequent abrasiveness doesn't fly well with the politics mods - that is of course a matter which they are best to judge.

So it seems like, to me, Nielso excels in one area of the site, and completely sucks at another. Given this 50/50 scenario, I don't think that permabanning him from all of 2p2 makes even a shred of sense. Given that aj has confirmed that, if unbanned, Nielso will stay out of Politics and stick to what he does best, I definitely think he should be unbanned. Give him a warning - stick to strat or be permabanned - and I doubt he will step over the line again. After all, there are plenty of other forums on the net where anarchistic ravings are more than welcome, and I'm sure that Nielso will find them.

Why make SSNL suffer the detriment of losing a valuable strat poster just because he's a raving anarchist? Exile him from Politics, unban him and let's get on which our lives.