25 50 3 bet 3 ways w 88

[lapoker17]

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lapoker17,

Does that make you the logic superstar in the friendship?

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i don't know.

[SlowHabit]

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lapoker17,

Does that make you the logic superstar in the friendship?

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i don't know.

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It was a reference to when Dean(?) challenged you to a logic test back then. Maybe it wasn't him. If it was, it's nice to see you guys make up [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

[lapoker17]

haha oh yeah forgot about that - we are now BFF.

[TheWorstPlayer]

im a math retard, but sure by eyeballing it i can say it's close if you're just calling for set value. but no matter what, this idea of 'having to steal the pot' occasionally postflop to make the preflop call good is just retarded.

[lapoker17]

eh i think its semantics - to me it means i am calling for slightly more than just set value. but maybe 2p2 author dude, who is defo smarter than me, can chime in.

[TheWorstPlayer]

fine, you're calling for more than set value preflop. but then you get to this spot and everyone agrees it's a fold. but if this spot is a fold then the call preflop is bad. ok, call is bad. doesn't make this spot not a fold. that's all i'm saying. and IMO, call preflop is marginal, this spot is a fold.

[lapoker17]

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but then you get to this spot and everyone agrees it's a fold.

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i spoke with multiple heavy hitters on aim and their opinions were all over the place- some liked shove some thought it was maybe ok - no one really said it was a clear fold after discussing it.

[TheWorstPlayer]

wasnt saying it was a clear fold. was saying IF it was a clear fold - pushing wouldnt make the preflop call any better. which seemed to be what the esteemed author was implying. that you could justify the push BECAUSE of the preflop call rather than on its own merits.

[cero_z]

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wasnt saying it was a clear fold. was saying IF it was a clear fold - pushing wouldnt make the preflop call any better. which seemed to be what the esteemed author was implying. that you could justify the push BECAUSE of the preflop call rather than on its own merits.

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That's not quite what Sunny was saying, IMO. He's saying that the pre-flop call can only be correct if you are playing for more than set value, which means that the other players in the hand either don't HAVE to be loaded, based on the action so far, or more rarely, that they can be bluffed off big pairs sometimes, and that you will play those situations correctly.

Thus, it would be consistent with your pre-flop read to shove here, and if you didn't, then most likely, you shouldn't have called pre, since there wasn't quite enough meat there to call just to hit a set. That's the way I interpreted what he said, anyway, and I agree with that line of thinking vs. a number of villains (no clue if these 2 fit the bill). Maybe he'll explain his own thoughts.

[Sunny Mehta]

When The Dovs Cry and Rob Thomas,

I'm not exactly sure what the quibble is, but the hand is probably contentious simply because it's marginal.

Preflop - you're putting in a lot of stack. Your implied odds aren't all that hot, and it's probably a losing call if you're gonna check/fold any non-8 flop. The thing that makes preflop +EV is if you win the pot without a set sometimes. But I know you both already know that.

So really the question is - is this one of those times? I don't know. But conceivably an answer of "yes it is" or "no it's not but preflop was still +EV because there are a range of other non-8 flops and opponent actions which WOULD be 'one of those times'" could both be correct.

WRT this hand, bottom line is do you have fold equity or not?

I just think that, really, in terms of ranges of non-8 flops and opponent actions that you're willing to play ball on, this scenario seems pretty damn decent (obv it would be better if button had folded, or if you had an OESD instead of a gutty, or blah blah blah). So if you're like totally gun shy about moving in on this flop, maybe you should at least rethink the preflop call. But again, maybe not.

All in all, unless the metagame reasons make it really worthwhile (and you don't mind the variance [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]), I think the best play is to just fold preflop. Especially if this fishy fish has no problems putting in tons of money preflop with a bunch of garbage, heck, just wait for a strong one-pair-type hand and SIIHP.

Cordially,

Your Favorite Smart and Esteemed 2p2 Author (and by "smart and esteemed" I of course mean "luckbox")