step by step KK - Page 3

fitnessfreak · #21 10-09-2007, 03:22 AM

wow, i hate the lines being advocated in this thread. villain overbet shoves turn. does he never do this with AK, QQ? i mean how nitty are these games!

4bet pre to about $235 and let him overcommit w AK and QQ-JJ. so many ppl will just shove these hands to a preflop 4bet given it was a steal, re-steal scenario. lol at people saying that villain wont commit preflop with QQ, AK or JJ here. im not saying he necessarily will, but ruling these hands out of his shoving/calling range is ludicrous.

as played i probably c/c flop and c/c turn. folding just seems way too weak and id need to know he was pretty nitty postflop before i laid this down.

ddubois · #22 10-09-2007, 05:39 AM

How is moving down going to change my line of thinking?

def NOT racist · #23 10-09-2007, 05:51 AM

[ QUOTE ]
How is moving down going to change my line of thinking?

[/ QUOTE ]

because you think in short-term decisions rather than about the correct long-term plays, and it could possibly be because of the amount of $ you are playing with, and the subsequent results

if you move down where the $ is not as significant to you, you can focus on making the right play and not on what will guarantee you short-term positive results

its as if you had AA preflop at 10/20, but decide to shove preflop because you would be winning the blinds 99% of the time, "locking in" those short-term results of winning the blinds of $30, rather than raising normally which would obviously be far more +ev but with a higher chance of losing $2k

ddubois · #24 10-09-2007, 06:12 AM

First, you need to convince me that 4-betting is NOT the correct long-term play. I think it is, and it has nothing to do with whether I'm playing 2/4 or 5/10, assuming the table has reasonably attentive opponents.

I simply see no winning scenario by flipping your hand face up here. How are you supposed to make money post-flop when your opponents can simply ask themselves "Can I beat QQ?", and proceed thusly? Flopping set over set or set over 2pair only? If you're going to be reduced to set mining, then you may as well call 77 here too, right?

As for opponents correctly folding pre-flop, so what? Picking up 15bb is not a bad result for any holding. Raising to protect your better hand is a fundamental aspect of poker. Giving free cards to worse hands is an FTOP mistake... except maybe if you think you can induce larger FTOP mistakes later, but you can't here, because your hand is face up and theirs isn't.

Omniheart · #25 10-09-2007, 06:31 AM

when someone 4 bet me in this spot, more signals go off in my heads than someone cold calling me.

futuredoc85 · #26 10-09-2007, 06:32 AM

your hand is face up if you 4-bet b/c BT knows you are only doing it w/ the strongest hands in your range for a cold 4-bet due to the shortstack in the hand. also shorty can re-open the betting if you call and he is more likely to isolate wide-ish than to give action to a cold 4-bet wide-ish

wtf5 · #27 10-09-2007, 06:36 AM

cold calling here is lol. If a reg does this to me i immediately think JJ-AA.

wtf5 · #28 10-09-2007, 06:42 AM

I think turn is quite an easy fold. Villain must be afraid that the flop has really hit your range but then again i dont know how often you cold call a 3bet PF.

fringsrache · #29 10-09-2007, 06:55 AM

[ QUOTE ]
cold calling here is lol. If a reg does this to me i immediately think JJ-AA.

[/ QUOTE ]

futuredoc85 · #30 10-09-2007, 07:03 AM

[ QUOTE ]
cold calling here is lol. If a reg does this to me i immediately think JJ-AA.

[/ QUOTE ]

ya and i always think its JTs or 77 when they cold 4-bet after someone 3-bet a shortstack. you cant always disguise your hand 100%