How did life begin? - Page 3

vhawk01 · #21 02-20-2007, 09:44 PM

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although I'm not surprised to find thats what your religious elders have conditioned you to expect. Its a useful strawman when your position is vulnerable.

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Is that a gnostic or agnostic point of view? Cause I can tell you for sure that never in church have we ever discussed what an athiest is, at least to what I can remember.

Yes there is a difference,
The Gnostic Athiest knows there is or isnt a God.

The Agnostic athiest has a belief there is no God but admitting they just don't know.

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And, importantly, the gnostic atheist doesn't exist.

SitNHit · #22 02-20-2007, 09:59 PM

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although I'm not surprised to find thats what your religious elders have conditioned you to expect. Its a useful strawman when your position is vulnerable.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is that a gnostic or agnostic point of view? Cause I can tell you for sure that never in church have we ever discussed what an athiest is, at least to what I can remember.

Yes there is a difference,
The Gnostic Athiest knows there is or isnt a God.

The Agnostic athiest has a belief there is no God but admitting they just don't know.

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And, importantly, the gnostic atheist doesn't exist.

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That is a gnostic thing to say, are you sure about that?

vhawk01 · #23 02-20-2007, 10:06 PM

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although I'm not surprised to find thats what your religious elders have conditioned you to expect. Its a useful strawman when your position is vulnerable.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is that a gnostic or agnostic point of view? Cause I can tell you for sure that never in church have we ever discussed what an athiest is, at least to what I can remember.

Yes there is a difference,
The Gnostic Athiest knows there is or isnt a God.

The Agnostic athiest has a belief there is no God but admitting they just don't know.

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And, importantly, the gnostic atheist doesn't exist.

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That is a gnostic thing to say, are you sure about that?

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Yes. I am gnostic about many things. Atheism isn't one of them. Have you ever met a so-called gnostic atheist? Someone is 100% that no type of God could exist? I'm going to guess the answer is an obvious no. Until you have, don't you think it is incredibly dishonest to prop up this strawman?

SitNHit · #24 02-20-2007, 10:14 PM

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although I'm not surprised to find thats what your religious elders have conditioned you to expect. Its a useful strawman when your position is vulnerable.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is that a gnostic or agnostic point of view? Cause I can tell you for sure that never in church have we ever discussed what an athiest is, at least to what I can remember.

Yes there is a difference,
The Gnostic Athiest knows there is or isnt a God.

The Agnostic athiest has a belief there is no God but admitting they just don't know.

[/ QUOTE ]

And, importantly, the gnostic atheist doesn't exist.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is a gnostic thing to say, are you sure about that?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. I am gnostic about many things. Atheism isn't one of them. Have you ever met a so-called gnostic atheist? Someone is 100% that no type of God could exist? I'm going to guess the answer is an obvious no. Until you have, don't you think it is incredibly dishonest to prop up this strawman?

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Ive met those who have said such, whether or not I truly know if they know is up for debate.

vhawk01 · #25 02-20-2007, 10:22 PM

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although I'm not surprised to find thats what your religious elders have conditioned you to expect. Its a useful strawman when your position is vulnerable.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is that a gnostic or agnostic point of view? Cause I can tell you for sure that never in church have we ever discussed what an athiest is, at least to what I can remember.

Yes there is a difference,
The Gnostic Athiest knows there is or isnt a God.

The Agnostic athiest has a belief there is no God but admitting they just don't know.

[/ QUOTE ]

And, importantly, the gnostic atheist doesn't exist.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is a gnostic thing to say, are you sure about that?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. I am gnostic about many things. Atheism isn't one of them. Have you ever met a so-called gnostic atheist? Someone is 100% that no type of God could exist? I'm going to guess the answer is an obvious no. Until you have, don't you think it is incredibly dishonest to prop up this strawman?

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Ive met those who have said such, whether or not I truly know if they know is up for debate.

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Then make fun of them I guess. I am suspicious of this, since I am positive I encounter more atheists than you on a monthly or yearly basis and I've never met one. Even the more assertive atheists on this board do not come close to such a statement.

m_the0ry · #26 02-20-2007, 10:47 PM

An impossibility is defined as having a probability of zero.

Is the probability of molecules being in exactly the right spot at the right time to start a self-replicating chain reaction greater than zero? Yes. Absolutely. Without a doubt. This means it is possible.

500 million years is the most conservative time window for the creation of life. Many people have trouble conceptualizing the amount of time that is. A molecule in liquid or gas phase has about 10^10 collisions per second. Scale that for years and the time window in question and each molecule makes something on the order of 10^27 collisions during that period. Each molecule also moves about 10^17 meters, which is the same as traversing the earths orbital circumference 1000 times. Now consider how many hydrogen, carbon, orxygen and nitrogen atoms there are on the earth. The number of permutations of chemical arrangements in 500 million years in a baryonic soup is magnitudal orders greater than astronomical, it is just inconcievable.

If you sent 10^500 tornadoes at piles of scrap metal, You would end up with a fleet of 747s, a few M1 Abrams tanks, a few bentleys and most certainly a few cellular organisms.

madnak · #27 02-20-2007, 10:49 PM

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I should ask are you a gnostic athiest? An agnostic athiest? a gnostic theist?, etc.

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I think the term "Gnostic" was effectively hijacked hundreds of years ago. There is relevant terminology for atheists and agnostics. Those on this forum are primarily weak atheists - as are the majority of atheists. There are strong atheists out there (sorry vhawk), but they're relatively rare, typically young and rebellious and bright but emotional. Agnostics of various types exist on this forum. Personally I'm a strong agnostic, but I often present as an agnostic atheist due to intricacy (that's another way to say "convolution") of my beliefs.

vhawk01 · #28 02-20-2007, 11:04 PM

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I should ask are you a gnostic athiest? An agnostic athiest? a gnostic theist?, etc.

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I think the term "Gnostic" was effectively hijacked hundreds of years ago. There is relevant terminology for atheists and agnostics. Those on this forum are primarily weak atheists - as are the majority of atheists. There are strong atheists out there (sorry vhawk), but they're relatively rare, typically young and rebellious and bright but emotional. Agnostics of various types exist on this forum. Personally I'm a strong agnostic, but I often present as an agnostic atheist due to intricacy (that's another way to say "convolution") of my beliefs.

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Fine, I will concede that there may be these strong atheists out there. I still maintain I've never met one, and I feel confident that in the event I do, a quick 5 minute discussion, including a definition of terms, would cure them of their problem. Same can't be said for the strong theists. It is really almost inconceivable to me that someone could be certain that no form of God could exist, just like its absurd to think that no invisible unicorns could possibly be hiding under my bed. Logically, being a strong theist is just as absurd, but it doesn't seem nearly as unlikely to me. I have a sneaking suspicion that the strong atheists are exactly as you have described, willful, ignorant young kids who like the idea of sticking it to their parents more than thinking about what they call themselves.

madnak · #29 02-20-2007, 11:26 PM

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Fine, I will concede that there may be these strong atheists out there. I still maintain I've never met one, and I feel confident that in the event I do, a quick 5 minute discussion, including a definition of terms, would cure them of their problem. Same can't be said for the strong theists. It is really almost inconceivable to me that someone could be certain that no form of God could exist, just like its absurd to think that no invisible unicorns could possibly be hiding under my bed. Logically, being a strong theist is just as absurd, but it doesn't seem nearly as unlikely to me. I have a sneaking suspicion that the strong atheists are exactly as you have described, willful, ignorant young kids who like the idea of sticking it to their parents more than thinking about what they call themselves.

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Well, being fair to them, most that I met (primarily in Salt Lake City) had been raised in a religious environment (and all were young). When a young person decides to abandon a religion that basically posits invisible unicorns, it's natural for their first beliefs to coalesce into a similar mode.

I think they grow out of it consistently.

SitNHit · #30 02-20-2007, 11:32 PM

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It is really almost inconceivable to me that someone could be certain that no form of God could exist, just like its absurd to think that no invisible unicorns could possibly be hiding under my bed.

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If the statement were, that someone is certain that God does exist, just like someone is certain that invisble unicorns exist under their bed.

You feel the same way? I assume you do which is why its a bad analogy. To relate unicorns with God is not reasonable, and lets keep the discussion reasonble please.