|
|
#21
08-26-2007, 10:25 PM
|
|||
|
|||
Re: Crying River Call ???
[ QUOTE ]
Somtimes playing straighforward is the correct way to play and you have to distance yourself from the 2p2 bird on your shoulder that starts screaming "raise raise raise that is what we do" whenever you have a good hand or draw. I will accept that maybe I see this spot as a little more black and white since some pretty good players came through this thread and glossed over the flop play but in this hand against this player on this board I will be very suprised if someone can convince me I am wrong. Thoughts? [/ QUOTE ] Ok, here's some more thoughts on the whole deal: We raise this big draw not only for the aforementioned reasons, but for deception as well. If we only call our draws and raise our made hands, we have lost the deception war. I will raise with AK[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], AQ, or a set all the same here, and I don't want them to know exactly which hand I have. Let's see. We call with our flush draw on the flop, and raise the turn when the flush actually comes. Hmm. Somewhere in the processing of the opponents, they will figure out you must have the goods, and would be correct to fold (unless they happen to have a big spade). Not our desired result. If we raise the flop, we have built a pot. Build a pot for our opponent worth clinging on to even when we hit on the turn. That is one of our goals. From empirical evidence, I've had many an opponent in this type of situation call down with a Q, even when I hit an A or K on the turn. So a baby flush card comes, KQ, QJ, would be tied into the pot, even if his/her hand contained no spade and we win more, which is one of our goals in the game in addition to deception. And yes another reason I didn't mention earlier but thought was rather obvious is, most of the time you can buy a free card and save half a bet. Unless you feel you can buy the pot outright against the right competition on the turn. If you fold the field and the 7, Q doesn't come, you will most likely have that option against the opponent. [ QUOTE ] Also, unless these guys are uber donks they won't often be limping with K4 or A4 since it will have to be offsuit to make a pair on this board [/ QUOTE ] This is an excellent point, but never *ever* underestimate bad players. I've seen too many people who call any and all bets with A-rag offsuit pre-flop. Garland 
|
|
#23
08-27-2007, 02:04 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: Crying River Call ???
[ QUOTE ]
We raise this big draw not only for the aforementioned reasons, but for deception as well. If we only call our draws and raise our made hands, we have lost the deception war. [/ QUOTE ]I think "deception" and "metagame" are wayyyy overused on these boards. If we're going to try to be deceptive, save it for the times when the decision is close either way and we've handled the situation one way the last few times. [ QUOTE ] Let's see. We call with our flush draw on the flop, and raise the turn when the flush actually comes. Hmm. Somewhere in the processing of the opponents, they will figure out you must have the goods, and would be correct to fold (unless they happen to have a big spade). Not our desired result. [/ QUOTE ]Why raise the turn if the flush hits? Assuming the guy to the right bets again, calling to allow the other two to stay in (assuming they didn't fold because we didn't raise the flop) seems like a no-brainer. Depending on reads of the opponents, and how much they seem to like their hands with three spades on board, I might not even raise the river. [ QUOTE ] If we raise the flop, we have built a pot. [/ QUOTE ]The pot was 4BB on the flop. If we call and the other two call, it will be 6BB. If we raise and one person cold-calls and MP calls, the pot will be 7BB. That's not a huge difference, and assuming we're going to get two cold-callers is a bit optimistic. [ QUOTE ] So a baby flush card comes, KQ, QJ, would be tied into the pot, even if his/her hand contained no spade and we win more, which is one of our goals in the game in addition to deception. [/ QUOTE ]If this is the case, then we win more by getting in a raise on a big street, though with the two highest spades we have to realize that we're not getting a ton of action no matter what. Even as described, with MP having Q7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], assume he bets his flush and we raise. Do you think he's going three bets with the A and K out there? This is one of those times when getting tricky only costs us money. Play it straightforward and make it comfortable for everyone to call along when you hit the nuts.
|
|
#24
08-27-2007, 07:19 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: Crying River Call ???
This hand is the perfect example of how mistakes on previous streets can really compound. PF and flop are fine, even if the flop is debatable. The turn is really where you made the biggest mistake. Once he donks into you again after raising the turn, his hand screams pair or better. You can't beat a pair and you don't have enough equity to raise, so this should have been a call, rather than a raise. Once you get 3 bet, you can't fold b/c you've got the flush draw so you've cost yourself 2 extra bets. Then once the river pops off you put yourself into the tough position of folding in a big pot or making a crying call on the river.
Rewind the hand and lets pretend you just call the turn and the river comes off a K, easy decision right? Just fling your chips and call or raise and fold to a 3 bet. The hand is just much easier that way.
|
 |
|
|
Linear Mode
