Strategic thinking against good players

[milesdyson]

[ QUOTE ]
And Jen Harman. She's admitted to not knowing some of the math behind the game, yet she's one of the best LHE players in the world.

[/ QUOTE ]
this is always so stupid.

it's like the hot actress who says she loves to eat donuts and ice cream and the only working out she does is carrying her purse. do you really think she eats like 5k calories daily, stays inactive, and keeps a body only suited for milesdyson to crush? no, the bitch is lying.

plus, "the math of LHE" is lol anyway.

[milesdyson]

[ QUOTE ]
Seriously though, the way to combat this is the screwplay. TAG CO raises, I defend with a5, flop comes xxx, I check/raise. Turn is A, GREAT spot for a screwplay against a thinking TAG, imo - I know I walk right into this one all the time.

[/ QUOTE ]
i like how right after heisenb3rg posts that people bluff raise a turn ace too much, you tell him to SHHHH like he's letting out some awesome secret. then, you detail a line that is completely counterproductive to exploiting the tendency. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[midnightpulp]

Miles, maybe that particular example about the math was bad, but my essential question was why is it that some good players become great players while other good players stay good players.

Assume the two players work equally hard on their game.

Is it as simple as inherent talent? Card sense? Etc...

[Heisenb3rg]

[ QUOTE ]

it's like the hot actress who says she loves to eat donuts and ice cream and the only working out she does is carrying her purse. do you really think she eats like 5k calories daily, stays inactive, and keeps a body only suited for milesdyson to crush? no, the bitch is lying.


[/ QUOTE ]

rofl so true..

Id also be curious how players like negreanu, david sklansky, doyle brunson would do in a 10/20 stars SH game.
They probabily so rarely play in that enviroment... Would they p0wn it harder than the 10/20 regs?

[Heisenb3rg]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
uhmmm SHHHHHHH....

[/ QUOTE ]

ummm just realized its too late to delete the post.. I really was going to after I read this lol...

[/ QUOTE ]
doesn't everyone talk about this already?

i can think of one hand right off the top of my head. ninawilliam's K3 blind battle hand where the turn is an ace. otherwise i can think of a hand i played where i had a draw hu and after c/ring flop i ended up b/3betting a turn ace.

few people who don't think of this are ever going to start thinking about it. kind of like the argument against the argument against poker books. people who suck at poker are likely not too smart. people who aren't too smart are not likely to read a book and apply it.

sorry for pooing on the parade.

[/ QUOTE ]

Almost everything in poker is common sense once your really think about it.
So many times ive read a sentence from a poker book and been like "yeah obv". But I actually didnt think about it until I read it..

I used to think about these situations as "people bluff raise high card turns enough to bet/call down profitably with 1 pair" but I never generalized the underlying concept to all bluffing sitatuions.. This was my insight. It's simple logic, but a useful way for ME to think about this stuff. Not claiming a groundbreaking unique idea...

[vmacosta]

[ QUOTE ]

I used to think about these situations as "people bluff raise high card turns enough to bet/call down profitably with 1 pair"

[/ QUOTE ]

I must lack reading comprehension cuz this is still basically all i got out of your post. its a good point though and def worth posting.

[midnightpulp]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

it's like the hot actress who says she loves to eat donuts and ice cream and the only working out she does is carrying her purse. do you really think she eats like 5k calories daily, stays inactive, and keeps a body only suited for milesdyson to crush? no, the bitch is lying.


[/ QUOTE ]

rofl so true..

Id also be curious how players like negreanu, david sklansky, doyle brunson would do in a 10/20 stars SH game.
They probabily so rarely play in that enviroment... Would they p0wn it harder than the 10/20 regs?

[/ QUOTE ]

Doyle would probably be a big loser. I don't think he spends much time thinking about LHE. Also, he's better in a live setting.

Sklansky and DN, if they put work in and used all the available resources, PT, HUD, they would be winners, but no more so than the good players in this forum. Sklansky after all wrote the bible on LHE, and DN was a 10-20 grinder long before he became a star.

[Heisenb3rg]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I used to think about these situations as "people bluff raise high card turns enough to bet/call down profitably with 1 pair"

[/ QUOTE ]

I must lack reading comprehension cuz this is still basically all i got out of your post. its a good point though and def worth posting.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm u missed my point then. This was just an example applying the concept.

Another situations applying the same concept:

Flop is T64 with a flushdraw
u have AJ in the HJ and are c/r by the BB.

Turn is 4 he bets, u call.

River is a 7 not completing the flush draw.

Against a very agressive good hand reader who knows you are very agressive, which river card do you have a more profitable call down on a 7 or a 4?

Assuming they are c/r flops with air my guess is the 7... (this is close though, there are better examples)

[vmacosta]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I used to think about these situations as "people bluff raise high card turns enough to bet/call down profitably with 1 pair"

[/ QUOTE ]

I must lack reading comprehension cuz this is still basically all i got out of your post. its a good point though and def worth posting.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm u missed my point then. This was just an example applying the concept.

Another situations applying the same concept:

Flop is T64 with a flushdraw
u have AJ in the HJ and are c/r by the BB.

Turn is 4 he bets, u call.

River is a 7 not completing the flush draw.

Against a very agressive good hand reader who knows you are very agressive, which river card do you have a more profitable call down on a 7 or a 4?

Assuming they are c/r flops with air my guess is the 7... (this is close though, there are better examples)

[/ QUOTE ]

heisenberg,
so you are saying: good players like to bluff scare cards?

[Heisenb3rg]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I used to think about these situations as "people bluff raise high card turns enough to bet/call down profitably with 1 pair"

[/ QUOTE ]

I must lack reading comprehension cuz this is still basically all i got out of your post. its a good point though and def worth posting.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm u missed my point then. This was just an example applying the concept.

Another situations applying the same concept:

Flop is T64 with a flushdraw
u have AJ in the HJ and are c/r by the BB.

Turn is 4 he bets, u call.

River is a 7 not completing the flush draw.

Against a very agressive good hand reader who knows you are very agressive, which river card do you have a more profitable call down on a 7 or a 4?

Assuming they are c/r flops with air my guess is the 7... (this is close though, there are better examples)

[/ QUOTE ]

heisenberg,
so you are saying: good players like to bluff scare cards?

[/ QUOTE ]

Which they will likely do with ALL of their missed range.

So to counter it you must assess how many missed/draws or air are in their range that they would have to represent the scare card. Even if they bluff the card with all their air doesnt mean you have a profitable call..

Look at my KTs hand the LC thread.. I bluff their with all my busted draws weak enough not to raise early.. Too bad thats the only one. So he had a very easy fold to my raise. Put a lagier player in that position and you have a call with any pair.

So yes... Im saying "good players bluff scare cards" but im also saying how to figure out how to counter it.