is it better to fold pre-flop in an easy game w/ jacks?

[WhiteWolf]

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When you play against a table full of bad players with different stack sizes, the value of your chips is close to linear, and there is little reason to be risk-averse.

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as just a side thought, if i thought i was a much better player than everybody else at the table aren't my chips even more valuable because in theory i can do more with them and should actually be a little more risk-adverse?

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It's a cash game. If you get it in as a 60/40 favorite and lose, you just rebuy. You give up a lot of expected value if you sit around waiting for even better situations.

[mvdgaag]

Maybe it has been replied before, but in a cashgame you should never pass a profitable spot.

This only makes sense in a tournament. For example you are a 55% favorite now and the next two hands, but you have to go allin. You will not bust out of the tournament in these three hands 5 out of 6 times if you take all these edges!

Of course you have a chance to be an overwhelming chip leader one in six times. But especially in the early stages this doesn't help you much, since you will have a lot of hands to play and have a small chance to keep the chip-advantage you have now...

In a cashgame however you should take all the smallest edges unless you are on a small BR (for the same reasons as in a tournament). You can lose and buyin again, but your long term expectation is highest if you take all these small edges.

[pzhon]

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Maybe it has been replied before, but in a cashgame you should never pass a profitable spot.

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This is not correct. That's why I said, "in general" but posted an exception.

You can't buy in for however much you want. If a fish has 300 BB, and you can only buy in for 100 BB, don't take a 500 BB coin-flip for your whole stack which expects to gain 1 BB. You expect to be able to use the chips from 100 to 300 BB more profitably than you expect to use the chips from 700 to 900 BB, so in that case, the chip value is sublinear, and you should be risk averse.

That said,

[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] People are very bad at recognizing which edges are small. Poker players are used to asking what the right play is, not seriously considering how right it is. Modern backgammon players tend to have a much better idea of how right a play is due to objective numerical feedbaack from computer programs, and I think that's part of the reason it's relatively easy for us to learn to play poker well. When people say they are passing up a small edge, they are often passing up a big edge.

[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Most of the time, chip value is very close to linear, which means you should not be passing up edges.

[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] At times, you should be happy to gamble. The chip value may be superlinear, or you may be able to set up a better combination of stack sizes. If there is one good player with a deep stack behind you, taking a marginal gamble against this player can make much more profitable situation. Either you cripple him, or your stack is reduced to an amount where his deep stack is not as much of a threat to taking the rest of the table's money.

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This only makes sense in a tournament. For example you are a 55% favorite now and the next two hands, but you have to go allin. You will not bust out of the tournament in these three hands 5 out of 6 times if you take all these edges!


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This is very misleading. You should almost always be happy to get your chips in as a 55-45 favorite in a tournament. There was a mediocre article on this in the 2+2 Internet Magazine, and a better one in CardPlayer earlier. You have a significant chance to bust out, but you will be in a poor position to win the tournament or even cash if you fold. Your tournament is always on the line, even if you fold. The risks of blinding down, or not having enough chips to take advantage of a later situation are less obvious than the risk of busting out immediately, but they are still there and are usually about as important.

Fossilman said that if you knowingly give up a 60:40 edge, you're not a good player. However, people erroneously believe that by giving up large edges, they will somehow become good players.

Cue the chimpanzee to jump in and scream that I'm wrong about everything because I've said something counterintuitive, hence worth saying.

[pzhon]

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if i thought i was a much better player than everybody else at the table aren't my chips even more valuable because in theory i can do more with them and should actually be a little more risk-adverse?

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There are two competing factors.

[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] If you bust out, you get the profitable opportunity to rebuy. Risking busting out increases the average number of chips you have on the table. If you are getting 3:2 to put your last 200 BB chips in as a 3:2 underdog, and can rebuy for 100 BB, then folding leaves 200 BB on the table, while calling averages 3/5(100) + 2/5 (500) = 260 chips.

[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] When you double up, you can continue to apply your skills to the extra chips you have... until you cover your opponents. When you start to cover your opponents, it becomes increasingly unlikely that additional chips will be used, so you expect to apply your skill advantage less effectively.

[NotFadeAway]

It's not a tournament, so why even consider passing up a profitable spot?

[drzen]

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Maybe it has been replied before, but in a cashgame you should never pass a profitable spot.

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This is not correct. That's why I said, "in general" but posted an exception.

You can't buy in for however much you want. If a fish has 300 BB, and you can only buy in for 100 BB, don't take a 500 BB coin-flip for your whole stack which expects to gain 1 BB.

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That's a very thin edge. Could you explain how you would ever know that you had that edge?

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You expect to be able to use the chips from 100 to 300 BB more profitably than you expect to use the chips from 700 to 900 BB, so in that case, the chip value is sublinear, and you should be risk averse.

That said,

[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] People are very bad at recognizing which edges are small.

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For good reason though. Calculating your equity on the fly against players you have only seen play a few hands isn't easy. And what you think is a good edge against their range can be a very poor edge, or no edge at all, because you misjudged their range, which is quite easy to do. And vice versa.

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Poker players are used to asking what the right play is, not seriously considering how right it is. Modern backgammon players tend to have a much better idea of how right a play is due to objective numerical feedbaack from computer programs, and I think that's part of the reason it's relatively easy for us to learn to play poker well. When people say they are passing up a small edge, they are often passing up a big edge.

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I think the opposite is much more often true. Players take small edges thinking they are much bigger. After all, what else is a player doing who pushes over a raise with a raggy ace?

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[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Most of the time, chip value is very close to linear, which means you should not be passing up edges.

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Would you mind explaining how we can know that it's not linear? I understand the theory in a tourney, but how does it work for cash?

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[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] At times, you should be happy to gamble. The chip value may be superlinear, or you may be able to set up a better combination of stack sizes. If there is one good player with a deep stack behind you, taking a marginal gamble against this player can make much more profitable situation. Either you cripple him, or your stack is reduced to an amount where his deep stack is not as much of a threat to taking the rest of the table's money.

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This only makes sense in a tournament. For example you are a 55% favorite now and the next two hands, but you have to go allin. You will not bust out of the tournament in these three hands 5 out of 6 times if you take all these edges!


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This is very misleading. You should almost always be happy to get your chips in as a 55-45 favorite in a tournament. There was a mediocre article on this in the 2+2 Internet Magazine, and a better one in CardPlayer earlier. You have a significant chance to bust out, but you will be in a poor position to win the tournament or even cash if you fold. Your tournament is always on the line, even if you fold. The risks of blinding down, or not having enough chips to take advantage of a later situation are less obvious than the risk of busting out immediately, but they are still there and are usually about as important.

Fossilman said that if you knowingly give up a 60:40 edge, you're not a good player. However, people erroneously believe that by giving up large edges, they will somehow become good players.

Cue the chimpanzee to jump in and scream that I'm wrong about everything because I've said something counterintuitive, hence worth saying.

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I guess I'm the chimpanzee, but I found the post very good. I think players who say "I'm passing up x edge because these players are poor and I can win more later" just don't understand that part of being a poor player is passing up x edge!

[BigPoppa]

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so in this case, with really bad players, it might've been better to fold and get my money in a better spot?


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Wouldn't you rather be in that spot with your money, his money and the limpers' money when they all fold to your push?


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unfortunately, part of the players bad play is that they'll call off huge portions of their stacks with nitty hands, so there is no guarantee that they would fold to an all-in. and part of the reason why i started this thread was to figure out if i should play a big pot pre-flop with the lower end of the group one hands, or pass and make money playing medium and big pots with really bad players who constantly make mistakes both pre-flop and post-flop.

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Why are you making this an either/or question? It's not.

Yes, you should get your money in now with an edge.

Yes, you should also try to get into pots with them later with an even bigger edge.

There is no reason why you have to give up an edge now for an even bigger one later. Take both.