AJo in the sb debate

[gobboboy]

The pros in this tournament were laughable in holdem.

[Yads]

What makes this different than a cash game is that you likely have <= 8 BB and you can't rebuy if you go broke. So you may not want to push your potentially small edge. Obviously in a cash game this is a 3 bet every time so let's ignore what you would do in a cash game. Would you make the same play if you had 5 BB and could not rebuy?

[nineinchal]

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I agree that the call was likely due to the fact that it was a tournament. Obviously the optimal play is to raise, but calling isn't terrible and is a lower variance play.

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I actually think calling is a higher variance play. To all who say this is because its a tournament, could you elaborate?

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Goes back to the gap concept in Sklansky's "Tournament Poker for Advanced Players."

The gap concept says that in a tournament you need a much better hand to call than to open. In a cash game you need a much better hand to open than to call. The differences referred in the previous two sentences is what is known at "the gap" as Slansky coined the phrase.

Additionally since chips decrease in value in a tourney, a good player has to be aware of the gap. Sometimes it pays to preserve your chips, and sometimes it pays to play agressively. Knowing when to do this depends upon the gap. Sometimes in a tourney, your opponents tighten up too much, sometimes they don't tighten up at all, when approaching the bubble.

That's why I asked what stage the tourney was at and what were the blinds earlier in this thread. I was trying to get a feel for what the gap is in this hand, since I didn't see the telecast. If it was early on in this tourney, it might not be worth risking any chips with an AJo, out of the BB on a late position steal; not to mention playing that hand out of position for the remainder of the hand. Whereas in a cash game I am going to raise your ass off to get it heads up, even if I am out of position with what is likely to be the best hand at the moment.

Remember the, "you're broke you're done", and "they're broke they're done" chapters. In a cash game you can just reach into your pocket and buy more chips, not so in this tourney.

[NinaWilliams]

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I agree that the call was likely due to the fact that it was a tournament. Obviously the optimal play is to raise, but calling isn't terrible and is a lower variance play.

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I actually think calling is a higher variance play. To all who say this is because its a tournament, could you elaborate?

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Goes back to the gap concept in Sklansky's "Tournament Poker for Advanced Players."

The gap concept says that in a tournament you need a much better hand to call than to open. In a cash game you need a much better hand to open than to call. The differences referred in the previous two sentences is what is known at "the gap" as Slansky coined the phrase.

Additionally since chips decrease in value in a tourney, a good player has to be aware of the gap. Sometimes it pays to preserve your chips, and sometimes it pays to play agressively. Knowing when to do this depends upon the gap. Sometimes in a tourney, your opponents tighten up too much, sometimes they don't tighten up at all, when approaching the bubble.

That's why I asked what stage the tourney was at and what were the blinds earlier in this thread. I was trying to get a feel for what the gap is in this hand, since I didn't see the telecast. If it was early on in this tourney, it might not be worth risking any chips with an AJo, out of the BB on a late position steal; not to mention playing that hand out of position for the remainder of the hand. Whereas in a cash game I am going to raise your ass off to get it heads up, even if I am out of position with what is likely to be the best hand at the moment.

Remember the, "you're broke you're done", and "they're broke they're done" chapters. In a cash game you can just reach into your pocket and buy more chips, not so in this tourney.

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Im aware of the gap concept and it exists in cash games too. To people that say to fold, or even people that say we have a thin equity edge, wtf? We have AJ vs a CO open. This hand is a monster. A8s or A9o would be close, and while id 3 bet them(maybe not A9o, that one depends, but usually A8s) in a cash game, i could consider folding them in a donkament.

[private joker]

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In a cash game you need a much better hand to open than to call.

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Wow, I don't agree with this at all. I'm not sure why you think the gap concept in tournaments is the opposite to that in cash games. Aren't you opening KQo but folding it if someone raises? I clearly need a better hand to call a raise (or 3-bet) than I do to open-raise myself in a cash game.

Anyway, 3-betting AJo here could preserve your stack better than calling. How'd you like to let the BB in for only one more bet and then have to beat 2 players with AJ instead of just one? I want BB to fold plenty of hands that I don't have dominated (KT, QT, 98s) to improve my chances of not losing chips on this hand.

[nineinchal]

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In a cash game you need a much better hand to open than to call.

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Wow, I don't agree with this at all. I'm not sure why you think the gap concept in tournaments is the opposite to that in cash games. Aren't you opening KQo but folding it if someone raises? I clearly need a better hand to call a raise (or 3-bet) than I do to open-raise myself in a cash game.

Anyway, 3-betting AJo here could preserve your stack better than calling. How'd you like to let the BB in for only one more bet and then have to beat 2 players with AJ instead of just one? I want BB to fold plenty of hands that I don't have dominated (KT, QT, 98s) to improve my chances of not losing chips on this hand.

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Hey Joker,

I'm just the messenger, you got to complain to Sklansky; I believe that was his language.

Insofar as your reasoning, or mine for that matter, it would depend upon the stage of the tournament, and the level of the blinds relative to stack size. That's why I still request the OP recall that information if possible.

Like most of us agree, in a cash game its a raise; in a tourney the small blind's move is debatable in regard to the overall expectation.

[Kevin J]

I'm normally 3-betting here, but if I had a sense that the CO had a real hand Vs. his normal steal range from that position, I might just call. I also might just call in this spot if the the bb plays very poorly and I wanted an overlay for those times AJ might be in trouble. This is a rare instance where a poor playing 3rd player can make AJ easier to play.

[chillrob]

Sklansky does talk about the gap concept, but I never considered it exclusive to tournament poker. Under most situations in cash games you also need a better had to call a raise with than you need to raise.

Many times I have had AJo in middle position, getting my chips ready to raise. A player just to my right, whom I respect (has reasonable raising standards similar to mine) raises before I can. I fold. My hand was good enough to raise, but not good enough to call a raise.

[nineinchal]

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Sklansky does talk about the gap concept, but I never considered it exclusive to tournament poker. Under most situations in cash games you also need a better had to call a raise with than you need to raise.

Many times I have had AJo in middle position, getting my chips ready to raise. A player just to my right, whom I respect (has reasonable raising standards similar to mine) raises before I can. I fold. My hand was good enough to raise, but not good enough to call a raise.

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Excellent example.

[Aaron W.]

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In a cash game you need a much better hand to open than to call.


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I'm just the messenger, you got to complain to Sklansky; I believe that was his language.

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Can you find it and quote it (at least in part)?