$11: AKs against Big Stack, TPTK on flop, he pushes

[david050173]

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I initally put in my first post 'there's no point calling preflop if your folding that flop.' I'm not too sure now. Does villain do this with KJ,77-JJ, flush draw etc here enough for hero to call this? And as for your comment about it being like 200/400 blind levels, its not the same as a bigstack has already shown decent interest in the pot.

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Jay, reread my post. I said the reward was the equivalent of the 200/400 blind level. I said you have access the risk based on your read.

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I think equating it with blind levels is a bad way of thinking about it. At 800/1600 blinds I am calling pushes with AK almost all the time. If someone open pushes during level 1 I fold almost all the time. Here having 40 BB instead of 10 BB makes a huge difference to me.

Without knowing anything about this player (does he routinely open for 5bb, is he agressive post flop,...) it is hard to say how you should play this hand.

[DevinLake]

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Those saying push preflop, what do you do if he makes a standard raise to 300? Raise to 1000 and fold to a push? Call a push? Just flatcall the first raise?

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Well, I wasn't necessarily saying push preflop. But, I was saying it wouldn't be a bad play. However, the lack of reads in this hand is very handicapping.

With this scenario the hand gets much more difficult to play. When he raised to 500, he put enough chips in the middle to justify a push. Now, simply raising to 300 it's harder to justify a push. However, it is also difficult to re-raise because you'll be creating a pot that will require playing for your whole stack. So, I don't like re-raising here against another big stack.

So, your other options. Well, I'll still maintain that if your truly scared of his range from UTG there is nothing wrong with a fold. But, I'm more likely flat calling in this spot.

Now, if he goes and pushes this flop again, it hasn't changed a whole lot. Pot odds are worse, so folding is easier. But, it's still not easy to fold TPTK when that is what you were flatcalling preflop for.

What hands is he raising UTG that he is pushing on this flop? Preflop: TT+, AJ+, KQ...? hard to say without a read. This is loose by 2+2 standards, but probably tight by $11 donky standards. Now on this flop whats he pushing? AJ of hearts? AA? Really doubt he's pushing KK, QQ or KQ. So, where losing to AA, we're ahead of TT, JJ, AJh, AQ and chopping with AK. Adding in KK,QQ,KQ some small percentage of time.

Without doing the math behind this, I'd guess we're ahead more often than behind, but it's close. Call if you want, fold if you want. I'd lean towards calling, because you hit the hand you were flat calling for and my range is likely two tight and you beating more hands then I have listed above.

[DevinLake]

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I think equating it with blind levels is a bad way of thinking about it.

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It's just another way of thinking about the pot size as a percentage of your stack, without actually calculating it. If you think that's a bad idea, please explain why. Without saying because 40 bbs is better than 10 bbs.

[david050173]

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I think equating it with blind levels is a bad way of thinking about it.

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It's just another way of thinking about the pot size as a percentage of your stack, without actually calculating it. If you think that's a bad idea, please explain why. Without saying because 40 bbs is better than 10 bbs.

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Stack depth is the whole point so it is hard to explain if I can't mention it. I don't play the same when I have 40BB and the chance to win 6BB as I do when I hav 10BB and the chance to 1.5BB. The number of chips I win is the same but the game situation is not. Higher blinds afffect how other people(and you) have to play. If the blinds where 1/2 instead of 50/100 would you still play this the same as 200/400?

[DevinLake]

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Stack depth is the whole point so it is hard to explain if I can't mention it. I don't play the same when I have 40BB and the chance to win 6BB as I do when I hav 10BB and the chance to 1.5BB. The number of chips I win is the same but the game situation is not. Higher blinds afffect how other people(and you) have to play. If the blinds where 1/2 instead of 50/100 would you still play this the same as 200/400?

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Ok, I get where you are going with this.

But, let's look at it a slightly differenet way.

You are saying that when faced with a decision that involves adding to 16% to your stack you look at stack depth relative to the blinds. Why do you do this though?

Why are you more willing to play AK when the blinds are high and ur adding 16% to your stack then when the blinds are low? I tell you why...because when the blinds get high people open up their ranges, making AK a more profitable hand to play.

So, now lets go back to the low blind situation. If you have a read that this person has a range that AK performs well against, why not play it? Just because your stack relative the blinds is solid? You'd be playing it for the same reasons you play it when the blinds are high. It's just that now you're thinking more about ranges directly, rather than ranges due to stack sizes. You don't feel you are missing out on $$ by passing up this +EV spots?

When the blinds are low, you are early in a tournament and there is less of a chance that folding can get you to the money. Therefore, passing up +EV spots by folding just to perserve your stack is not the most +EV strategy IMO. I think you have to detach your calling ranges somewhat from stack sizes and figure out how your cards hold up against an opponents range. As you get closer to the money, relative stack sizes get more important.

[uphigh_downlow]

This is a semi tangent from the OP, but relevant regardless

The difference between 10Bb and 40Bb with a similar pot size ie pretty self-evident.

With 10BB, opponent ranges are different. Looser to say the least.

However if you do put your opponents on the same ranges, then the only difference would be your tiny edge per hand dealt out before you go bust.

This tiny edge would add up to be higher if you fold in a 40BB situation, so you can pass up marginal situations, that you would call in 10Bb situations as you expect to be able to make up for it and more.

[david050173]

The additional hands to play is definitely part of my rational. If someone is pushing any 2 in a heads up match and I have 1000 bb I can wait for big pair. If he is pushing any 2 in a 10 bb game things like AK(and a lot worse) are instacalls. With no read I would assume the BB is tighter with lower blinds, but there is a good chunk of players who think low blinds are a reason to gamble with speculative hands.

The real problem is that the post flop play doesn't make a lot of sense and without a read we don't know if we have run into a trap or a donk.

[uphigh_downlow]

And to look at an exaggerated version of the same problem, you can check out a problem posed by Sklansky himself. Its posted in Poker theory

http://<a href="http://forumserver.t...ost6305932</a>
ps: Sry cudnt edit my earlier post, and found this after a bit of searching.