flopped set ve PF Reraiser...whats my line?

[pineapple888]

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calling to hope he "catches up" by hitting one of 6 cards (that he may or may not be willing to felt) is stupid when we can raise/get it in vs OP hands that slow down when when half the deck falls.

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What possible reason would he have for slowing down with only a PSB left?

[Dire]

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calling to hope he "catches up" by hitting one of 6 cards (that he may or may not be willing to felt) is stupid when we can raise/get it in vs OP hands that slow down when when half the deck falls.

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Not sure where/how you play, but unless you have the world's nittiest image - most people are never folding QQ/KK/AA here regardless of the turn and even if he does have JJ/TT, he's probably not just check/folding the turn given the pot size and that your hand doesn't look at all like something that would improve from a Q/K/A.

As well, this is all assuming he even has a hand. A SB reraising a BTN steal means very very little.

[Casper05]

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calling to hope he "catches up" by hitting one of 6 cards (that he may or may not be willing to felt) is stupid when we can raise/get it in vs OP hands that slow down when when half the deck falls.

[/ QUOTE ]

What possible reason would he have for slowing down with only a PSB left?

[/ QUOTE ]the flush hits? A card hits that makes 2 pair a greater possibility? Anything that makes him uncomfortable to felt JJ like a K/A/[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]/etc

[Mase31683]

I think we should raise now. Overpairs probably feel good and ready to stack off here, and if they're ready now, why wait? I'd like to know from some who are saying call, what the correct play would be if we do call and villian checks to us on the turn. I can see why checking could be correct, but not sure how to go about playing it the right way. What would you do:

1)When the turn is a third flush card
2)When it's not a flush card

[Dire]

Casper, I think there's a problem with how you're going about this. You're really working optimize your play in this spot around holding like TT/JJ, as well as working under the assumption that he's apparently also happy to just check/fold TT/JJ to anything even resembling a scare card on the turn.

I'm not going to argue about whether or not villain would check/fold TT/JJ if something like a spade peeled off. In my experience, they wouldn't even consider it. But that's not something I can really argue since it's based on our differing experiences.

However, I'm sure you'd agree that optimizing your play around such an unlikely/exact range (TT/JJ) is not the right thing to do. We have to expect that TT/JJ makes up a very small part of his overall range. Even if he's a very tight 3-bettor then you're probably looking at QQ-AA, AQ, AK, maybe KQ - with TT/JJ making up a very very small portion of his range (if they're even in it). If he's a light 3-bettor, which seems may easily be the case, then his range is obviously MUCH MUCH wider than that - and again TT/JJ continues to become increasingly irrelevant when playing against his overall range.

I do agree that if we know his hand is TT/JJ then this is a great spot to raise. But I'm sure you'd also agree that if we know his hand is AQ/AK/67/77/whatever then raising is a terrible play. The problem is most of his range can't really take the heat - but may value bet/semi-bluff/straight out bluff or even 'catch up' on the turn. And alot of his range range that CAN take the heat, is going to stack on most turns/rivers anyhow.

[Casper05]

Dire, I understand what you are saying...I'm not trying to insenuate that his range is polarized towards TT/JJ at all...

I play 26/21ish and get looked up with all sorts of crap here...I guess thats why I shove- it allows me to shove worse and helps create the image I want. (Don't [censored] 3bet me you newbie, this is my [censored] table.) I also think calling looks stronger than shoving.

This is the 2nd time in a row villain has 3-bet us...he's going to assume we are frustrated and look us up light...and if he doesnt then fine..maybe he'll leave me the [censored] alone!

[Dire]

I would distinguish the differences in calling on a flop like this one and one like A87 (also with a FD). Regardless of which might look like it looks strong or weaker, calling on a flop like A87 is EFFECTIVELY much stronger - since most hands have to feel like they're turning their hand into a bluff, or extremely extremely marginal value, if much money goes in on the turn. Whereas many hands could happily value bet / semi-bluff us on the turn given this flop.

I also believe there is a much bigger need to balance raises on flops like A87 compared to this one. Like you said, you're getting looked up by all sorts of crap on flops like this one. It doesn't matter how many sets you've jammed on these flops, you're not usually bluffing out TT. Again, comparing this to the A87 flop - I find a HUGE need to balance raises on the A87 flop. That is a flop you can easily push people off many hands, but requires alot of balancing to do so since many players would just call the flop if they actually had an ace.

A flop like this one I would be more inclined to call or float a reasonably wide range, as slowplays and with legitimate marginal hands. On a flop like A87 I'd be inclined to raise, for value and as bluffs, a reasonably wide range. So I guess it works both ways. If shoving here makes sense for your game then there's nothing else to be said - although I still do not understand how shoving really allows you to shove worse on flops like this. Basically, I find I get the most value pushing people off hands on flops with scare cards - but playing a bit more passively on benign boards giving people the chance to bluff or try to make very thin value bets.

[Casper05]

Fair enough- agree to disagree, but have fun floating relative unknowns in 3bet pots.

Also, your last sentence makes no sense as that is the exact opposite of what you are saying to do on this hand (you say to play passive on benign boards- this board is very drawy; you say you like to push people off hand when scare cards come, but you're going to let scare cards come when you have a hand?) You already said that he isn't likely to slow down on scare cards because he only has a PSB left...so which is it? You like to float and push people off their hands in 3 bet pots when scare cards hit, or do you like to slowplay because they are unlikely to be scared?

[primate]

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Calling is fine in position, especially if you have reason to think he's 3-betting light.

I'd either min-raise or shove. Sometimes I'd call down, but I don't really like it here with the board texture and his bet size.

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Calling is not fine IMO. Lots of turn cards will fall that will kill your action. Defo raise it up.

[primate]

OMG just actually read how many of you advocate slow playing this hand. WTF WTF WTF? Big hands = big pots.

Just too many cards will defo kill your action on the turn, if Villain has big PP. If he is raising lite and you raise and he folds then so be it.

Raise = +EV

This is soooo standard a raise my mind boggles.