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#21
05-11-2006, 02:18 PM
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Re: 109s AK vs tighty and loosy
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] 1700 in the pot and 425 to call, leaving the caller with 16 BBs. Folding is wrong (without BB in the pot it would be a fold with just the tightie in the pot), and it is too early to shove, IMO. [/ QUOTE ] 1.) It is never too early to shove if your edge is large enough 2.) AK wants to see all 5 cards 3.) You have no headroom for postflop play [/ QUOTE ] Dood, look at SB's play. He raises 40% of his stack preflop where if he wanted to maximize fold equity (with a hand like TT or JJ or AQ or even AK), he would push. I really think that if he's a good 2+2ish sort of player, he has AA/KK. The overlay from SB doesn't really matter if we can narrow down SB's range this significantly. I'm all about picking up dead chips from idiots and the T600 is indeed very compelling, but why on earth didn't SB just push? [/ QUOTE ] See my other posts. Of course if he's good and tricky you just dump it. But if he's just some random dude, mostly he's just raising because he has something that looks good and doesn't realize he should push. If a random dude was "trapping" he'd just call typically. 
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#22
05-11-2006, 02:20 PM
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Re: 109s AK vs tighty and loosy
But OP stated that the only real reads he has on this player point toward him being decent. You can't assume everyone at the 109s is a donk.
Also, this kind of play screams so strongly of AA/KK that I don't think you need a super-solid read to lay this down. If SB is even half-decent for a 109 palyer, he is not doing this wihth JJ and probably not with QQ, either.
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#23
05-11-2006, 02:21 PM
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Re: 109s AK vs tighty and loosy
calling accomplishes absolutely nothing...i'm backing up psyduck on this one 100%, for all the reasons he stated. IMO if SB has been as tight as OP says, we can narrow down his range enough that AK is at a pretty big disadvantage, even if there is a lot of dead money in the pot.
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#24
05-11-2006, 02:23 PM
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Re: 109s AK vs tighty and loosy
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Dood, look at SB's play. He raises 40% of his stack preflop where if he wanted to maximize fold equity (with a hand like TT or JJ or AQ or even AK), he would push. [/ QUOTE ] Most players are bad. Its wrong to assume any of them think this way. [ QUOTE ] I really think that if he's a good 2+2ish sort of player, he has AA/KK. The overlay from SB doesn't really matter if we can narrow down SB's range this significantly. I'm all about picking up dead chips from idiots and the T600 is indeed very compelling, but why on earth didn't SB just push? [/ QUOTE ] Again, because most poker players stink. Try not to assume they think logically like you and many others in this thread. [/ QUOTE ] i don't know why you would be using the "but they're all donkeys!" reasoning here, it's a 109 and SB has been solid so far.
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#25
05-11-2006, 02:23 PM
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Re: 109s AK vs tighty and loosy
What does pushing accomplish? Normally we say that pushing >>> calling PF because of fold equity. We clearly have no FE here. Therefore, if we thing TT-QQ is in his range (which, remember, still beats us!) there's nothing wrong with calling, seeing a flop, and playing if we hit and A or a K.
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#26
05-11-2006, 02:35 PM
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Re: 109s AK vs tighty and loosy
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Dood, look at SB's play. He raises 40% of his stack preflop where if he wanted to maximize fold equity (with a hand like TT or JJ or AQ or even AK), he would push. [/ QUOTE ] Most players are bad. Its wrong to assume any of them think this way. [ QUOTE ] I really think that if he's a good 2+2ish sort of player, he has AA/KK. The overlay from SB doesn't really matter if we can narrow down SB's range this significantly. I'm all about picking up dead chips from idiots and the T600 is indeed very compelling, but why on earth didn't SB just push? [/ QUOTE ] Again, because most poker players stink. Try not to assume they think logically like you and many others in this thread. [/ QUOTE ] i don't know why you would be using the "but they're all donkeys!" reasoning here, it's a 109 and SB has been solid so far. [/ QUOTE ] I believe I wrote most, not all. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] Donk is my default assumption even if the player seems reasonable. Even in the 109's.
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#27
05-11-2006, 03:23 PM
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Re: 109s AK vs tighty and loosy
[ QUOTE ]
What does pushing accomplish? Normally we say that pushing >>> calling PF because of fold equity. We clearly have no FE here. Therefore, if we thing TT-QQ is in his range (which, remember, still beats us!) there's nothing wrong with calling, seeing a flop, and playing if we hit and A or a K. [/ QUOTE ] Cause then he can get away from the hand, and meanwhile we get shoved off hands we whiff, and don't see the turn or river. There's just no room here.
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#28
05-11-2006, 03:25 PM
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Re: 109s AK vs tighty and loosy
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Dood, look at SB's play. He raises 40% of his stack preflop where if he wanted to maximize fold equity (with a hand like TT or JJ or AQ or even AK), he would push. [/ QUOTE ] Most players are bad. Its wrong to assume any of them think this way. [ QUOTE ] I really think that if he's a good 2+2ish sort of player, he has AA/KK. The overlay from SB doesn't really matter if we can narrow down SB's range this significantly. I'm all about picking up dead chips from idiots and the T600 is indeed very compelling, but why on earth didn't SB just push? [/ QUOTE ] Again, because most poker players stink. Try not to assume they think logically like you and many others in this thread. [/ QUOTE ] i don't know why you would be using the "but they're all donkeys!" reasoning here, it's a 109 and SB has been solid so far. [/ QUOTE ] I believe I wrote most, not all. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] Donk is my default assumption even if the player seems reasonable. Even in the 109's. [/ QUOTE ] Agreed. And he doesn't have to be a huge donk here, just not quite up to 2+2 standards. I was a winning player before I fully understood push vs. raise and other concepts that become second nature once you find this place.
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#29
05-11-2006, 03:29 PM
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Re: 109s AK vs tighty and loosy
[ QUOTE ]
What does pushing accomplish? Normally we say that pushing >>> calling PF because of fold equity. We clearly have no FE here. Therefore, if we thing TT-QQ is in his range (which, remember, still beats us!) there's nothing wrong with calling, seeing a flop, and playing if we hit and A or a K. [/ QUOTE ] Pushing allows us to see all 5 cards. Pushing prevents us from being bluffed off a non A/K flop by AQs. I'm not saying that I think a push is correct (I'm inclined to fold here), but there are reasons to push besides FE. A call might be OK if he had more chips (and if you didn't think his RRing range was so tight), but if I'm playing this pot, I'm playing it all the way.
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#30
05-11-2006, 03:37 PM
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Re: 109s AK vs tighty and loosy
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] What does pushing accomplish? Normally we say that pushing >>> calling PF because of fold equity. We clearly have no FE here. Therefore, if we thing TT-QQ is in his range (which, remember, still beats us!) there's nothing wrong with calling, seeing a flop, and playing if we hit and A or a K. [/ QUOTE ] Pushing allows us to see all 5 cards. Pushing prevents us from being bluffed off a non A/K flop by AQs. I'm not saying that I think a push is correct (I'm inclined to fold here), but there are reasons to push besides FE. A call might be OK if he had more chips (and if you didn't think his RRing range was so tight), but if I'm playing this pot, I'm playing it all the way. [/ QUOTE ] Agree on all counts.
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