Does "ordering actions which result in the deaths of innocent Iraqis"

[tomdemaine]

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Do you believe any of America's presidents during WW2 should have been tried and put to death?

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Like I say I don't think anyone should be hung but here are your options.

1. Don't punish Saddam

2. Punish all people who give orders that they know will cause the deaths of innocent people.

3. Admit that that isn't the real reason you are killing Saddam.

4. Admit that you're a hypocrite.

5. Come up with a credible actual tangible difference between those innocents who died because of Saddam and those who died because of, for example Churchill or Roosevelt.
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Should any of us planners or anyone involved in ordering the builiding of the bridge require the death penalty?

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If you built the bridge knowing full well that innocent people would die then yes you are responsible.

[Money2Burn]

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If you built the bridge knowing full well that innocent people would die then yes you are responsible

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By this logic every president that has entered into a war is guilty, it is war, innocent people are going to die. It's an unavoidable fact.

I understand if you are just against war, period, but if you somehow expected Bush to fight a war in which no innocent people die, that is where I would take issue with you. I would say it is completely unreasonable to expect such a thing.

[tomdemaine]

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By this logic every president that has entered into a war is guilty,


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I agree. I'm not the one advocating hanging Saddam. All I'm saying is don't pretend that your not a massive hypocrite if you think Saddam should be punished but others shouldn't for doing the very same thing!

[Money2Burn]

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By this logic every president that has entered into a war is guilty,


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I agree. I'm not the one advocating hanging Saddam. All I'm saying is don't pretend that your not a massive hypocrite if you think Saddam should be punished but others shouldn't for doing the very same thing!

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Bush has not done the same thing as Saddam though.

[JOHNY CA$H]

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Require the death penalty? Lets be consistent please.

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Do you believe any of America's presidents during WW2 should have been tried and put to death?

You could counter, as someone in this thread mentioned, that Bush lied about the reasons for going to war. Bush and other proponets for the war gave numerous reasons for invading Iraq, most of which were not lies, but since we did not find WMDs people that did not like Bush jumped all over it and called him a liar. The fact that he lied about the WMDs, in my opinion, is highly debateable. I believe Bush actually thought Saddam either had them or was actively pursuing getting them, people that despise Bush think otherwise. They claim that he knew without a shadow of a doubt, Saddam did not have WMDs and chose to tell the American people that he did anyway. That would hvae been a lie. However a great deal of evidence suggests this is not true. That being said, this goes back to the poker example of getting it all in with AA preflop only to lose to 72o, after someone told you that you will make money if you do that. Are they a liar? No.

I got a little off topic there. My answer to you is no. Let's say I am a city planner, we decide that a bridge should be built to make it easier to access two parts of our city from each other. The plan gets accepted and the bridge is built. A short period after the bridge is built, it collapses killing hundreds who were on the bridge and many more who were unlucky enough to be fishing underneath the bridge when it collapsed. Should any of us planners or anyone involved in ordering the builiding of the bridge require the death penalty?

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Okay- before the invasion of Iraq, I KNEW all the reasons were false. Didn't think, KNEW. At the time I was a 22 year old University student. This was clear to anyone who spent more than 30 min researching. Anyone who says that the Bush administration made an easy mistake is either in denial or very, very dumb. To believe this is an honest mistake is to be a SUCKER.

[MidGe]

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Okay- before the invasion of Iraq, I KNEW all the reasons were false. Didn't think, KNEW. At the time I was a 22 year old University student. This was clear to anyone who spent more than 30 min researching. Anyone who says that the Bush administration made an easy mistake is either in denial or very, very dumb. To believe this is an honest mistake is to be a SUCKER.


[/ QUOTE ] Good on you Johnny,


I am quite a fair bit older than you, and honestly I got sucked in by Bush/Blair/Howard arguments. I remember arguing with friends that I could not conceive that a president/prime minister would lie to its constituency in something as serious as a motive for a war.

I have had to apologize to all of my friends and acknowledge that, regardless of my age, I got suckered. I thought they, the powers, had information that they could not divulge for security purposes but that they would take a morally responsible stance.

I feel absolutely betrayed, like I have never been in my life, by my Prime Minister, the USA president, and the UK Prime Minister. One thing is for sure, is that I will never forget the way I was misled and will surely distrust any government from now on as potentially, and probably, self interested, greedy, miscreants. F* democracy when it can be so misused.

[canis582]

" I remember arguing with friends that I could not conceive that a president/prime minister would lie to its constituency in something as serious as a motive for a war."

Cue history lessons: Spanish American War, WW1, Vietnam, intervention in central america etc.

[MidGe]

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" I remember arguing with friends that I could not conceive that a president/prime minister would lie to its constituency in something as serious as a motive for a war."

Cue history lessons: Spanish American War, WW1, Vietnam, intervention in central america etc.

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Yes, I agree, and many others. Lesson learned [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Money2Burn]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
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Require the death penalty? Lets be consistent please.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you believe any of America's presidents during WW2 should have been tried and put to death?

You could counter, as someone in this thread mentioned, that Bush lied about the reasons for going to war. Bush and other proponets for the war gave numerous reasons for invading Iraq, most of which were not lies, but since we did not find WMDs people that did not like Bush jumped all over it and called him a liar. The fact that he lied about the WMDs, in my opinion, is highly debateable. I believe Bush actually thought Saddam either had them or was actively pursuing getting them, people that despise Bush think otherwise. They claim that he knew without a shadow of a doubt, Saddam did not have WMDs and chose to tell the American people that he did anyway. That would hvae been a lie. However a great deal of evidence suggests this is not true. That being said, this goes back to the poker example of getting it all in with AA preflop only to lose to 72o, after someone told you that you will make money if you do that. Are they a liar? No.

I got a little off topic there. My answer to you is no. Let's say I am a city planner, we decide that a bridge should be built to make it easier to access two parts of our city from each other. The plan gets accepted and the bridge is built. A short period after the bridge is built, it collapses killing hundreds who were on the bridge and many more who were unlucky enough to be fishing underneath the bridge when it collapsed. Should any of us planners or anyone involved in ordering the builiding of the bridge require the death penalty?

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay- before the invasion of Iraq, I KNEW all the reasons were false. Didn't think, KNEW. At the time I was a 22 year old University student. This was clear to anyone who spent more than 30 min researching. Anyone who says that the Bush administration made an easy mistake is either in denial or very, very dumb. To believe this is an honest mistake is to be a SUCKER.

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First of all, you were wrong when you KNEW all the reasons were false. Most people I've talked to who supported or still support the war knew Bush had alterior motives for going to Iraq, so you can go ahead and pat yourself on the back all you want, but coming to that "revelation" is nothing special. Second, no mistake can be called easy when the situation is so difficult.

[Bobbo539]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Require the death penalty? Lets be consistent please.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you believe any of America's presidents during WW2 should have been tried and put to death?

You could counter, as someone in this thread mentioned, that Bush lied about the reasons for going to war. Bush and other proponets for the war gave numerous reasons for invading Iraq, most of which were not lies, but since we did not find WMDs people that did not like Bush jumped all over it and called him a liar. The fact that he lied about the WMDs, in my opinion, is highly debateable. I believe Bush actually thought Saddam either had them or was actively pursuing getting them, people that despise Bush think otherwise. They claim that he knew without a shadow of a doubt, Saddam did not have WMDs and chose to tell the American people that he did anyway. That would hvae been a lie. However a great deal of evidence suggests this is not true. That being said, this goes back to the poker example of getting it all in with AA preflop only to lose to 72o, after someone told you that you will make money if you do that. Are they a liar? No.

I got a little off topic there. My answer to you is no. Let's say I am a city planner, we decide that a bridge should be built to make it easier to access two parts of our city from each other. The plan gets accepted and the bridge is built. A short period after the bridge is built, it collapses killing hundreds who were on the bridge and many more who were unlucky enough to be fishing underneath the bridge when it collapsed. Should any of us planners or anyone involved in ordering the builiding of the bridge require the death penalty?

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay- before the invasion of Iraq, I KNEW all the reasons were false. Didn't think, KNEW. At the time I was a 22 year old University student. This was clear to anyone who spent more than 30 min researching. Anyone who says that the Bush administration made an easy mistake is either in denial or very, very dumb. To believe this is an honest mistake is to be a SUCKER.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you know all the reasons were false?

lets first examine the justifications (which were directly outlined by Bush before the war);
1- To remove Saddam for crimes against his own people and depriving his own people their rights
2- To punish Saddam for violation of 12 UN resolutions
3- To rid Iraq of WMD's
4- To eliminate Saddam and Iraq's ties to greater terrorist networks

Thus, you blieve that;
1- Saddam did not kill hundreds of thousands of people
2- Saddam did not break 12 UN resolutions
3- Saddam did not or was not persuing WMD's, which may have or may not have been the case, but you would strongly disagree with British intelligence who I think has spent more than "30 minuets researching" the topic
4- That Iraq had no ties to larger terror networks

....

and you are calling other people "suckers"?