IQ versus effort - Page 3

limon · #21 02-22-2007, 02:48 PM

the problem is "smart" can mean alot of things. if your in the 80th percentile most will refer to you as smart but you will still need to put in a ton of effort to accomplish anything. if your in the 97th percentile you will be referred to as really smart but you will still need to put in a massive amount of effort to really accomplish anything because those breathing the true rarified air, the top tenth of a percent, the ones who really can accomplish things w/ less effort will always be standing in your way. the problem w/ most of the little twits on this site (and in life) is they dont understand how smart smart is. once they realize a 135 iq and 1450 sats is AVERAGE for where they want to be they will give a little more effort.

theBruiser500 · #22 02-22-2007, 02:56 PM

limon not sure i follow you: http://www.iqcomparisonsite.com/IQBasics.aspx

with a 130 IQ it means you're one of the 2 smartest out of 100
with a 145 IQ it means you're one of the couple smartest out of a 1000 people. that seems really smart to me. i know that when you get to graduate schol or whatever the people get filtered out so the average IQ goes up a lot but take grad school for instance, does it really filter out 95/100 people... and those people it filters out I bet there isn't THAT strong f a correlation between the people thatdon't get there and low intelligence.

limon · #23 02-22-2007, 03:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
limon not sure i follow you: http://www.iqcomparisonsite.com/IQBasics.aspx

with a 130 IQ it means you're one of the 2 smartest out of 100
with a 145 IQ it means you're one of the couple smartest out of a 1000 people. that seems really smart to me. i know that when you get to graduate schol or whatever the people get filtered out so the average IQ goes up a lot but take grad school for instance, does it really filter out 95/100 people... and those people it filters out I bet there isn't THAT strong f a correlation between the people thatdon't get there and low intelligence.

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im not talking about grad school. grad school is kindergarten. im talking about 300/600 mixed games, offshore tax shelters, booking american idol bets and 10k golf hustles, real "out of the box" thinking. im talking about never actually working, really living w/ "no" effort...how many out of a 100/1000/10000 can manage that?

disjunction · #24 02-22-2007, 03:17 PM

Bruiser,

[ QUOTE ]
disjunction this is very interesting. Do you have any further reading on the subject? Also I'm curious, what background makes you feel so strongly about this? I also feel the same way about this but the specific idea from your article is new to me

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On the second question first, I'm not sure why this is such a hot-button issue for me. I was a double major as an undergrad, cognitive psychology and computer science, but when I graduated I dropped the psychology research for Comp Sci research even though I liked the psychology side much better. I am really really interested in how the human mind works.

But that's not the whole story. I was raised in a household where my parents were kind of passive-aggressive about their children being brilliant. On the one hand, they thought, think, and raised us to believe that we are absolutely brilliant. On the other hand, they always discouraged us from competing because they wanted us to be "human", and raised us to believe that being a well-rounded person was most important. The result is that I am simultaneously enthralled and disgusted by discussions of IQ. With each passing year, I get more disgusted and less intrigued. With my psych background, day after day I see people attribute things to IQ that have nothing to do with it. Sklansky could have won a Nobel Prize if he worked hard. As if IQ is the important part, WTF? He doesn't work so he's not qualified, and that's the end. As with any field, when day after day you see people say the same misleading things in everyday conversation, you feel compelled to correct it. Also, most people here are younger than me and I want them to avoid the traps if they can.

As for articles, I don't know much about this area of research. On general Intelligence issues, Howard Gardner from Harvard writes a lot of books, I had to read one for a class and it was an easy read. It was ok.

On this particular area of research, your best bet is to go to the source. Psych journals kick ass! The article says the study was done by Carol Dweck, and all the journals she publishes in should be at the nearest university library.

http://www-psych.stanford.edu/~dweck/

disjunction · #25 02-22-2007, 03:23 PM

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I guess the idea in this article is that if someone thinks they succeeded becuase they worked hard, then they can work hard again on something more difficult and succeed. If it's about intelligence they can either do it or not do it so they are scared?

So if we had people do art projects and said "you are artistically talented" and "you must have worked very hard on this" then we'd expect the same thing, the people who are artistically talented would not do the harder project(?). Do you think that "fear of failure" is the cute name people give to the real psychological concept of "image maintenence"?

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Yes that's the gist of it. I actually think there are a couple of things going on that are kind of running together. People, especially children, will internalize what you tell them they are. So if you tell them they are someone who puts in a lot of effort, they will put in a lot of effort. That's what they said in social psych anyway.

But on the other hand there's this praise, this separate fear of failure thing. My personal opinion is that the praised artists will be driven to try something harder, but they also may be inclined to give up easier. I don't have a good definition for either "fear of failure" nor "image maintenance", so I'm not sure if they're the same or not. Informally, they sound like the same thing to me.

AZK · #26 02-22-2007, 03:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
limon not sure i follow you: http://www.iqcomparisonsite.com/IQBasics.aspx

with a 130 IQ it means you're one of the 2 smartest out of 100
with a 145 IQ it means you're one of the couple smartest out of a 1000 people. that seems really smart to me. i know that when you get to graduate schol or whatever the people get filtered out so the average IQ goes up a lot but take grad school for instance, does it really filter out 95/100 people... and those people it filters out I bet there isn't THAT strong f a correlation between the people thatdon't get there and low intelligence.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem with these correlations bruiser is that this is assuming you come into contact with everyone all the time. I don't know about you, but of the 100 people I interact with everyday, I am NOT smarter than 98 of them. Not even close. It's been like this for most of my life. I think the world would be boring and depressing if it was like this for me. This is partially what limon is talking about.

theBruiser500 · #27 02-22-2007, 04:03 PM

"I think the world would be boring and depressing if it was like this for me."

lol okay

theBruiser500 · #28 02-22-2007, 04:05 PM

limon, I have been struck by how how smart the best poker players are. disjunction, some of this stuff is used in PUA like someone might say to the girl there with "i love how you are so fun loving and adventurous".

im a model · #29 02-22-2007, 04:39 PM

ME SMART TOO!!!11 LOVE MEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!1111111

limon · #30 02-22-2007, 06:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
limon, I have been struck by how how smart the best poker players are. disjunction, some of this stuff is used in PUA like someone might say to the girl there with "i love how you are so fun loving and adventurous".

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imo, elite GAMBLERS exist in the super genius realm. many people call them hustlers. thats ok if you realize what they really are is walking casinos/nonstop advantage players/ninja grade scam artists. think of how many millions of people say to themselves i wish i could just play cards and golf all day and how few actually accomplish that. then add the fact that there is NO way to work your way upo without having the ability, no way to have your daddy promote you and no way to get an elite education that moves you to the front of the pack. then add the fact that they are utterly fearless and you have a dangerous human being who operates wayyyy outside what "smart" people can comprehend.