Kool-Aid didn’t kill those people.

[coberst]

I agree that we are creatures who seek pattern. We respond to pattern in music and we demand pattern in learning. Without it we are lost. Math is our great accomplishment in the art and science of pattern.

[DougShrapnel]

[ QUOTE ]
Freud informs us the reason for this form of behavior is the tendency for humans to be suggestible and influenced by a psychic form of transference.

[/ QUOTE ] Sounds good and all, but not true. It's a learned behavior. Going against the crowd results most often in bad consequences for the defector. There are countless examples of this in action, and it's not often because of transference that people exhibit the group mind.

[ QUOTE ]
individuals sacrifice personal interest for the group interest.

[/ QUOTE ] It is for their own personal interest that they cater to the group. Sometimes it backfires and instead has bad consequences.

[ QUOTE ]
“Moreover, by the mere fact that he forms part of an organized group, a man descends several rungs in the ladder of civilization.” Isolated, he may be a cultivated individual; in a crowd, he is a barbarian—a creature acting by instinct. “He possesses the spontaneity, the violence, the ferocity, and also the enthusiasm and heroism of primitive beings.”

There is a lowering of intellectual ability “pointing to its similarity with the mental life of primitive people and of children…A group is credulous and easily influenced”—the improbable seldom exists—they think in images—feelings are very simple and exaggerated—the group knows neither doubt nor uncertainty—extremes are prevalent, antipathy becomes hate and suspicion becomes certainty.

Force is king—force is respected and obeyed without question—kindness is weakness—tradition is triumphant—words have a magical power—supernatural powers are easily accepted—groups never thirst for truth, they demand illusions—the unreal receives precedence over the real—the group is an obedient herd—prestige is a source for domination, however it “is also dependent upon success, and is lost in the event of failure”.

[/ QUOTE ] This just doesn't make any sense.

[ QUOTE ]

That which promotes life is good that which promotes death is evil.

[/ QUOTE ] I'm with you here.

[ QUOTE ]
we seek hypnotists as our chosen leaders.

[/ QUOTE ] All leaders are granted the status of knowing, we dare not disobey or fear the consequence. It's not a hypnotic power, just the nature of learning.

I'm still amazed at the detailed work and mainly coherent thought you can put into the works of Freud. It seems so obviously flawed to me, yet I'm amazed at how well you put together a working discussion with cogent points based off his work.

[oe39]

you don't think it was poison?

[coberst]

Non-philosophical forms of inquiry are intellectual endeavors constituted by certain basic assumptions. A scientific form of inquiry assumes that the world is an ordered whole and that we can, through reason, acquire knowledge of this whole. The world of science is governed by laws that define causal effects that are measurable and perceivable by humans.

It is the case that humans reason from within container like boundaries, thus we are always within a container. However the trick is to enlarge our containers and thereby gain a more universal perspective. We must find a means to examine our assumptions. Each container is constructed with its own assumptions. That is why philosophy is so useful. It is a domain of knowledge with the largest container, or at least the Philosophy dept likes to think so.

Ideology takes its assumptions and considers them infallible and strives to convince the world that their assumptions are natural and universal. Take as example the assumptions of Americans about democracy and freedom or the Catholic Church about Jesus.

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
Ideology takes its assumptions and considers them infallible and strives to convince the world that their assumptions are natural and universal.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's what I said, you disagreed and said it was just a set of ideas that we give great value to.

This is a vital difference. The whole problem you are discussing here is not usually a result of people having ideas that they value greatly, in fact when people are willing to put their lifes at risk for ideas they value greatly we normally consider that a noble thing to do. Its only when it has become ideological that we consider something has gone wrong.

chez

[MidGe]

[ QUOTE ]
A scientific form of inquiry assumes that the world is an ordered whole and that we can, through reason, acquire knowledge of this whole. The world of science is governed by laws that define causal effects that are measurable and perceivable by humans.

[/ QUOTE ]

From that statement I can deduce your background is not scientific, coberst, You really are king at shooting yourself in the foot!

[coberst]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A scientific form of inquiry assumes that the world is an ordered whole and that we can, through reason, acquire knowledge of this whole. The world of science is governed by laws that define causal effects that are measurable and perceivable by humans.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am a retired engineer.

From that statement I can deduce your background is not scientific, coberst, You really are king at shooting yourself in the foot!

[/ QUOTE ]