[Cross-Post from MSNL] Something you guys don't do enough

[Xanta]

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Jesus lobster, if you're leveling me before or after this thread I'd kick you in the groin.

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Owned [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Melchiades]

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Assume there is a stack behind you (shorty btn opens and you are in sb with a 100bb stack in bb). What is your 3bet size?

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Just make it regular size. 3x or whatever you prefer. Even retarded shorties know they have no FE, and they won't call to see a flop since that is not part of their playbook. And TAG in the BB will play very snug in this situation.

[Merlinius]

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Hand 1: 33.190% 31.86% 01.33% 13026964656 542041176.00 { 22+, A2s+, K6s+, Q9s+, J9s+, T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s, 65s, A2o+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo }
This isn't the right way to do things. This shows that shoving that range is more profitable than folding that range. Obviously shoving AA is profitable. It doesn't mean shoving, say A2 which might have a lot less equity than our overall range does is profitable. It probably is +EV given everything else, but it might not be. You have to select borderline hands like A2o, see what equity that has & see if that is profitable itself. Against someone with JJ calling every time, shoving AA-TT is profitable. It doesnt mean you should shove TT.

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that's the first thing that came to my mind when i read the post. you have to define some numbers and then set some kind of bottom line in regard to which hand you can profitably shove. just comparing 2 ranges doesn't make much sense because you always hold 2 cards, not a range of cards, and just because shoving AA is profitable, shoving K6s isn't getting any better.

[goofyballer]

GG MRS GRIMSTARR

[skier_5]

re using the range. I did [censored] up there, you guys are right. And really I should have taken some [censored] hands and been like look, these are profitable so therefore anything with more equity will be too.

So,

schwza, while you are right i did [censored] up in the presentation a bit, my point was that pretty much anything with reasonable equity will show a profit by shoving over these guys.

So, let's take two of these hands

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 25.650% 25.02% 00.63% 406080276 10283238.00 { A2o, JTo }
Hand 1: 74.350% 73.72% 00.63% 1196617440 10283238.00 { TT+, AKs, AKo }


and we see that on avg we get 25.6% equity

0=4.5x - 8.63 +8.63x
8.63 = 13.132x
x= 0.66

So he needs to fold only 11% more than our collective range showed to breakeven (we have a lot more equity against a looser calling range as well) so it's still very likely profitable.

surely any shortstack is opening more than 10% of their hands otb if that is their calling range.

Some people suggested that their calling range might be flawed:

So if we use this range:


equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 29.968% 29.21% 00.75% 894397800 23087820.00 { A2o, JTo }
Hand 1: 70.032% 69.28% 00.75% 2121026112 23087820.00 { 77+, AJs+, AQo+ }

we fill in our equation

0=4.5x - 6.85 +6.85x
6.85 = 11.35x
x= 0.603

Which still isn't much

So if they are opening { 22+, ATs+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, ATo+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo } (17.9% of hands) they are folding 65% of the time.

edit: was wrong to use A2o and Jto together since one does better than the other but im sick of redoing this [censored].

[MyTurn2Raise]

you just explained what many shortstackers are doing to everyone else

I posted the first shortstacking lesson here

[skier_5]

also, thinking about this some more, given that we lose money on some hands the shortstacker has to increase his range which gets our big money making hands called more often (and increases our equity with our [censored] hands) so it may not be completely correct that we can only anaylze the bottom end of the range and determine if those hands show a profit.

[carrotsnake]

skier - fwiw, when your talking about shoving SB, you are missing the equity we lose when BB wakes up with something and either shoves over the top or cold calls with TT or in that genre. I'm not sure how to add that into the equity calculation, but it does matter, especially if the BB has the capability to actually watch the action and see you've expanded your SB 3 bet range to 45% of hands or whatever

[skier_5]

im talking only about when we are in the BB and the shortstack is either btn or sb. So we are "closing" the action.

[StnBuddha]

answer = i don't even know what u just said right then!!!