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#21
06-29-2007, 08:39 PM
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Re: Witchcraft as a metaphor for religion
[ QUOTE ]
The big difference is that theists tend work at the level of 'rules' and atheists tend to work at the level of 'principles'. This traps theists into digging up a rule and applying it to situations that aren't the same as the one the rule may be meant to cover, it just has similarities. Theists can reach so horribly wrong moral places and not have a way out because of that 'moral by rules' weakness. [/ QUOTE ] Sooo true. I think I'm going to steal this idea from you from now on. Well said. 
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#22
06-29-2007, 09:51 PM
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Re: Witchcraft as a metaphor for religion
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] The big difference is that theists tend work at the level of 'rules' and atheists tend to work at the level of 'principles'. This traps theists into digging up a rule and applying it to situations that aren't the same as the one the rule may be meant to cover, it just has similarities. Theists can reach so horribly wrong moral places and not have a way out because of that 'moral by rules' weakness. [/ QUOTE ] Sooo true. I think I'm going to steal this idea from you from now on. Well said. [/ QUOTE ] This is exactly the radical departure Jesus made from the way of "The Law". He broke from the Rule Based system of Jewish Law to a Spirit Based life guided by principles he taught in the golden rule, parbables, and the sermon on the mount. Those are the principles by which a Christian tries to live. What "principle" guides the ethics of the atheist other than "self interest"? PairTheBoard
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#23
06-29-2007, 10:00 PM
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Re: Witchcraft as a metaphor for religion
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] The big difference is that theists tend work at the level of 'rules' and atheists tend to work at the level of 'principles'. This traps theists into digging up a rule and applying it to situations that aren't the same as the one the rule may be meant to cover, it just has similarities. Theists can reach so horribly wrong moral places and not have a way out because of that 'moral by rules' weakness. [/ QUOTE ] Sooo true. I think I'm going to steal this idea from you from now on. Well said. [/ QUOTE ] This is exactly the radical departure Jesus made from the way of "The Law". He broke from the Rule Based system of Jewish Law to a Spirit Based life guided by principles he taught in the golden rule, parbables, and the sermon on the mount. Those are the principles by which a Christian tries to live. [/ QUOTE ] Unfortunately many Christians are returning to the rule-based morality that you claim Jesus was trying to improve upon. I suspect it's not as many as most atheists believe, but it's an alarming trend. [ QUOTE ] What "principle" guides the ethics of the atheist other than "self interest"? [/ QUOTE ] Are you serious for this one? Just because you don't believe in God doesn't mean that you can't recognize that certain principles are good ones to live by. Personally, I have a lot of principles that I try to live by: - Don't be prejudiced - Independent investigation of truth - The golden rule - loyalty, responsibility, integrity, generosity, etc. I guess I'm not a standard atheist though. I prefer to think of myself as an agnostic, but that supposedly means I'm a coward who's afraid to take a stance.
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#24
06-29-2007, 10:51 PM
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Re: Witchcraft as a metaphor for religion
[ QUOTE ]
Theists can reach so horribly wrong moral places and not have a way out because of that 'moral by rules' weakness. On a day-to-day basis, no, you couldn't tell a random theist from a random atheists by their moral choices. But at certain crunch times, you'll be able to. [/ QUOTE ] That is logically compelling. But can you give an example of one of these crunch times? I'm doubtful. Pairtheboard's comment reinforces my stance that any proper moral decision by an atheist can also be arrived at by a flexible theist. I'm open to persuasion because it would be a point for my team, but I'd be surprised. Hell, even harsh fundies like Pat Robertson can make remarkable contortions in theology when it suits their purpose, so I feel sure kind types like Rev. William Sloan Coffin can also adapt to any moral imperative. Further, the "moral by rules" cage is no less rigid than any materialist bars can be. Talk to most any 19 year old Trotskyite for an earful of dogma.
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#25
06-29-2007, 11:41 PM
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Re: Witchcraft as a metaphor for religion
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] What "principle" guides the ethics of the atheist other than "self interest"? [/ QUOTE ] Are you serious for this one? Just because you don't believe in God doesn't mean that you can't recognize that certain principles are good ones to live by. Personally, I have a lot of principles that I try to live by: - Don't be prejudiced - Independent investigation of truth - The golden rule - loyalty, responsibility, integrity, generosity, etc. I guess I'm not a standard atheist though. I prefer to think of myself as an agnostic, but that supposedly means I'm a coward who's afraid to take a stance. [/ QUOTE ] I think such principles are part of our heritage. They are echos of our religious past. What I see going forward is people scoffing at ideas like "Honor". Witness the recent "Parasite Dilemma" thread where people were puzzled by the idea that they would keep their word once it is given. What's wrong with cheating? What's wrong with lying? Self interest is everything. PairTheBoard
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#26
06-30-2007, 12:19 AM
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Re: Witchcraft as a metaphor for religion
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] There can be a case made that materialism is better positioned for better morals than theists.... By pragmatism and common sense, man has come to certain morals like slavery is bad.... people realized that slaves are essentially the same as their masters [/ QUOTE ] That's an interesting attempt, but it does not jibe with what I know about abolition in the US. Abolitionists were usually very religious (John Brown). Both slave holders and abolitionists based their arguments on scripture. The Civil War itself was more about imperial power than sympathy for slaves. Further, the most elaborate scientific attempts to prove Africans were not "essentially the same" came after slavery was over. There's not much of a correlation between the end of slavery and a decline of racism. In fact, it is a negative correlation in the scientific field. Like religion, rationalism can easily be used for different ends. If your goal is superiority of yourself and subjugation of others, then slavery can be a rational choice. And slavery based on race is a very pragmatic way of organizing and protecting the institution. I'd like to believe that materialism makes us atheists more more humane, but I haven't seen anything persuasive. [/ QUOTE ] Abolitionits were certainly mostly religious. Slave-owners were far more religious. The only secular voices came down on the side of abolition. Sort of an example of the "good men doing evil requires religion" thing, if you ask me.
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#27
06-30-2007, 12:21 AM
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Re: Witchcraft as a metaphor for religion
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] The big difference is that theists tend work at the level of 'rules' and atheists tend to work at the level of 'principles'. This traps theists into digging up a rule and applying it to situations that aren't the same as the one the rule may be meant to cover, it just has similarities. Theists can reach so horribly wrong moral places and not have a way out because of that 'moral by rules' weakness. [/ QUOTE ] Sooo true. I think I'm going to steal this idea from you from now on. Well said. [/ QUOTE ] This is exactly the radical departure Jesus made from the way of "The Law". He broke from the Rule Based system of Jewish Law to a Spirit Based life guided by principles he taught in the golden rule, parbables, and the sermon on the mount. Those are the principles by which a Christian tries to live. What "principle" guides the ethics of the atheist other than "self interest"? PairTheBoard [/ QUOTE ] That one works just fine.
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#28
06-30-2007, 12:23 AM
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Re: Witchcraft as a metaphor for religion
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] The big difference is that theists tend work at the level of 'rules' and atheists tend to work at the level of 'principles'. This traps theists into digging up a rule and applying it to situations that aren't the same as the one the rule may be meant to cover, it just has similarities. Theists can reach so horribly wrong moral places and not have a way out because of that 'moral by rules' weakness. [/ QUOTE ] Sooo true. I think I'm going to steal this idea from you from now on. Well said. [/ QUOTE ] This is exactly the radical departure Jesus made from the way of "The Law". He broke from the Rule Based system of Jewish Law to a Spirit Based life guided by principles he taught in the golden rule, parbables, and the sermon on the mount. Those are the principles by which a Christian tries to live. [/ QUOTE ] Unfortunately many Christians are returning to the rule-based morality that you claim Jesus was trying to improve upon. I suspect it's not as many as most atheists believe, but it's an alarming trend. [ QUOTE ] What "principle" guides the ethics of the atheist other than "self interest"? [/ QUOTE ] Are you serious for this one? Just because you don't believe in God doesn't mean that you can't recognize that certain principles are good ones to live by. Personally, I have a lot of principles that I try to live by: - Don't be prejudiced - Independent investigation of truth - The golden rule - loyalty, responsibility, integrity, generosity, etc. I guess I'm not a standard atheist though. I prefer to think of myself as an agnostic, but that supposedly means I'm a coward who's afraid to take a stance. [/ QUOTE ] All 4 of those are really just wordy versions of "naked self-interest." The golden rule isn't even a camouflaged version.
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#29
06-30-2007, 12:24 AM
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Re: Witchcraft as a metaphor for religion
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] What "principle" guides the ethics of the atheist other than "self interest"? [/ QUOTE ] Are you serious for this one? Just because you don't believe in God doesn't mean that you can't recognize that certain principles are good ones to live by. Personally, I have a lot of principles that I try to live by: - Don't be prejudiced - Independent investigation of truth - The golden rule - loyalty, responsibility, integrity, generosity, etc. I guess I'm not a standard atheist though. I prefer to think of myself as an agnostic, but that supposedly means I'm a coward who's afraid to take a stance. [/ QUOTE ] I think such principles are part of our heritage. They are echos of our religious past. What I see going forward is people scoffing at ideas like "Honor". Witness the recent "Parasite Dilemma" thread where people were puzzled by the idea that they would keep their word once it is given. What's wrong with cheating? What's wrong with lying? Self interest is everything. PairTheBoard [/ QUOTE ] So sad to see Aristotle thrown into the Jesus camp.
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#30
06-30-2007, 04:02 AM
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Re: Witchcraft as a metaphor for religion
"
This is exactly the radical departure Jesus made from the way of "The Law". He broke from the Rule Based system of Jewish Law to a Spirit Based life guided by principles he taught in the golden rule, parbables, and the sermon on the mount. Those are the principles by which a Christian tries to live. What "principle" guides the ethics of the atheist other than "self interest"?" The same things that guide the interests and ethics of theists. Fundamentally, people don't hit other people because they're christians; in fact christians hit just as many people as non christians.
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