AA in the BB

[Burnsabre]

I just recently started playing more live games, not used to playing full ring and such loose tables.

Anways: 15/30 9 handed.
Only player with a clue at the table is to my right.

6 limpers, SB completes, I raise AA in BB. Flop comes KJx. I bet, 5 calls. ugh.
turn pairs the J. I dutifully bet, 3 calls and SB ch/r the field for 2. Easy fold?

[benwood]

If the 3 limpers behind you all call the raise,you will be getting 20 to 1 on trying to catch an A on the river.You're not quite getting the odds,but I would fish in anyway because I play bad.

[blindside]

with the board paired i might call. it really depends on how much of a calling station the folks behind you are. if they'll call two cold with a straight if you make your hand on the river then i would call and if they'll call two cold after someone else calls two cold even better!

they would also have to come along as well which is no guarantee either. but if they don't have a clue, go ahead and call.

[ILOVEPOKER929]

PREFLOP: Standard

FLOP: Your flop bet is a mistake, but I think only a very small percentage of poker players truly understand why it's a mistake. I just wanted to point that out cuz I think most 2+2ers would bet in this spot even though betting is actually the incorrect play in this situation.

TURN: Yes the turn is an easy fold against 95% of live 15-30 opponents unless you have the odds to outdraw trip jacks.

[benwood]

I think that you're right about the flop.With 16 bets in the pot,you should be thinking in terms of protection.A flop bet will tend to lock players in,rather than force them out.If you check & hopefully get a bet from the back-end,you can make a shut-out type raise & narrow this field.

[poker1O1]

[ QUOTE ]
FLOP: Your flop bet is a mistake, but I think only a very small percentage of poker players truly understand why it's a mistake. I just wanted to point that out cuz I think most 2+2ers would bet in this spot even though betting is actually the incorrect play in this situation.

[/ QUOTE ]
you're advocating a c/r to narrow the field right?

[ILOVEPOKER929]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
FLOP: Your flop bet is a mistake, but I think only a very small percentage of poker players truly understand why it's a mistake. I just wanted to point that out cuz I think most 2+2ers would bet in this spot even though betting is actually the incorrect play in this situation.

[/ QUOTE ]
you're advocating a c/r to narrow the field right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Were OOP to 6 players in a 16sb pot. This means two things.

1) A flop bet will not protect our hand.

2) Someone out of those 6 players is very likely to bet.

Given these two realities betting is a clear strategic error. I am not necessarily advocating a check/raise to narrow the field however. I am advocating a check with the intention of seeing the action and making the best play possible from there.

Sometimes I will be check/raising to narrow the field. Sometimes I will be check/raising for value becuz there may not be a way to protect my hand. Sometimes I may check/call the flop, and check/raise the turn depending on the action and my reads. Sometimes I may check/call the flop with the intention of donk/calling the turn or donk/3betting the turn depending on the action and whom im up against. However I would say that most of the time I am check/raising this flop.

My main point here is that checking the flop in this spot with this type of hand is clearly better than betting in my mind. Yet whats interesting to me is every time I watch a good player play this spot or read about a good player playing this spot, they invariably continue bet and it always makes me cringe. For many good players continue betting in spots like this with this type of hand is their last fundamental leak.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
FLOP: Your flop bet is a mistake, but I think only a very small percentage of poker players truly understand why it's a mistake. I just wanted to point that out cuz I think most 2+2ers would bet in this spot even though betting is actually the incorrect play in this situation.

[/ QUOTE ]
you're advocating a c/r to narrow the field right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Were OOP to 6 players in a 16sb pot. This means two things.

1) A flop bet will not protect our hand.

2) Someone out of those 6 players is very likely to bet.

Given these two realities betting is a clear strategic error. I am not necessarily advocating a check/raise to narrow the field however. I am advocating a check with the intention of seeing the action and making the best play possible from there.

Sometimes I will be check/raising to narrow the field. Sometimes I will be check/raising for value becuz there may not be a way to protect my hand. Sometimes I may check/call the flop, and check/raise the turn depending on the action and my reads. Sometimes I may check/call the flop with the intention of donk/calling the turn or donk/3betting the turn depending on the action and whom im up against. However I would say that most of the time I am check/raising this flop.

My main point here is that checking the flop in this spot with this type of hand is clearly better than betting in my mind. Yet whats interesting to me is every time I watch a good player play this spot or read about a good player playing this spot, they invariably continue bet and it always makes me cringe. For many good players continue betting in spots like this with this type of hand is their last fundamental leak.

[/ QUOTE ]

In games where you can feel reasonably certain (I don't even think it has to be "very very" certain), I agree. However, in live games, these sort of flops get checked around much much more often. Couple that with the fact that it's a KJxr flop, and your fears of being outdrawn aren't nearly as legitimate as they are on a lot of other boards. Finally toss in the fact that you won't have the option to protect your hand on the turn the vast majority of the time anyway due to your positional disadvantage and your informational disadvantage based on your flop play, and you've set yourself up for a very awkward position.

Given the inability to protect your hand, you should be betting for value here; your hand has plenty of it in a live 15/30 environment with many hands that won't bet that will call. Regardless, when you're talking about "checkraising to protect" and you're still offering sufficient odds for 4+ outers to call your flop checkraise, you've got to be much more certain about who will do your betting, what their likely play on various turn cards will be, and what their various ranges are for flop/turn bets in this sort of spot. I know that you know all of this but I think you're overstating the case here quite a bit. Often I find inexperienced players who do understand a bit about hand protection checking "because they can't protect their hand," where you should at least have some glimmer of an idea of what you really intend to have happen when you check --oftentimes you'll end up with a big pot anyway and very uncertain action, at best, on the turn, and to boot you'll have a gap in how well your hand and your opponent's range of hands are defined, leaving you with both a positional and informational disadvantage in the hand.

In the live game I have the most recent experience in, the Bellagio 15/30, I'd strongly urge the OP to bet the flop the vast majority of the time. In the Bellagio 30, however, I think the argument for check vs bet with the same action preflop is much stronger leaning toward the check side.

OP:

Overall, assuming you bet-folded the turn, I think you played the hand well.

Rob

[7ontheline]

I had a post typed, but Entity said it all. I see ILP's point about wanting to protect your hand but this pot is too big already and being OOP just makes it too unpredictable what is going to happen behind you. Just bet and hope your aces hold up. Turn J sucks obviously, fold to that c/r is best.

[ILOVEPOKER929]

“In games where you can feel reasonably certain (I don't even think it has to be "very very" certain), I agree. However, in live games, these sort of flops get checked around much much more often.”

The pot is large enough to take this risk IMO. Out of 6 opponents someone is very likely to bet.

“Couple that with the fact that it's a KJxr flop, and your fears of being outdrawn aren't nearly as legitimate as they are on a lot of other boards. Finally toss in the fact that you won't have the option to protect your hand on the turn the vast majority of the time anyway due to your positional disadvantage and your informational disadvantage based on your flop play, and you've set yourself up for a very awkward position.”

Making the right play will sometimes put me in awkward positions. I don’t mind that. I don’t avoid correct strategy becuz I may feel awkward.


“Given the inability to protect your hand, you should be betting for value here; your hand has plenty of it in a live 15/30 environment with many hands that won't bet that will call.”

Obviously I strongly disagree in this specific spot. Even if I cant protect my hand I would rather check/raise for value than bet for value.

“Regardless, when you're talking about "checkraising to protect" and you're still offering sufficient odds for 4+ outers to call your flop checkraise, you've got to be much more certain about who will do your betting”

Again I strongly disagree. You don’t have to be certain "who" is going to bet to make checking here the right play. In fact when I make this play most of the time I have no idea who is going to bet. All I really know is that the probability that one of these 6 opponents will bet this flop is close enough to 100% to make checking here better than betting here given the fact that a bet will not protect my hand. Also there’s another thing I want to point out. It doesn’t matter that if we check/raise for elimination that the people in the middle will still have the odds to call with their 4+5 outers becuz so many of them will fold anyways. There are enough people who play this game that simply wont make this call with this draw for 2 cold not closing the action to still make this play worthwhile. Its like they have it in their minds that "I can see the turn for one small bet, but not two" Check/raising the flop takes advantage of this very common mistake, and if they call anyways, its still a check/raise for value.

“what their likely play on various turn cards will be, and what their various ranges are for flop/turn bets in this sort of spot. I know that you know all of this but I think you're overstating the case here quite a bit.”

Nope Im not overstating anything. I feel very strongly about this idea. I'll let you and all 2+2ers in on a little secret about my play. Whenever I have any one pair hand and I'm OOP to 5 people or more I never bet whether the pot is raised or not unless the game is extremely passive. Why do I make this play? Becuz its the right play, and thats the only kind of plays I like making. I believe anyone who blindly bets out in this situation doesnt understand the simple dynamics of this game and they do not understand just how much the size of the pot should alter their normal strategy. I understand that what I am saying is controversial but I don’t care. Not only is this "mistake" I’m talking about a large strategical error but its also a mistake too common among all poker players.

“Often I find inexperienced players who do understand a bit about hand protection checking "because they can't protect their hand," where you should at least have some glimmer of an idea of what you really intend to have happen when you check --oftentimes you'll end up with a big pot anyway and very uncertain action, at best, on the turn, and to boot you'll have a gap in how well your hand and your opponent's range of hands are defined, leaving you with both a positional and informational disadvantage in the hand.”

No strategy is perfect. There will always be a downside to any choice you make in poker or life. I promise you the pluses outweigh the minuses here. It is my contention that checking this flop will increase your probability of winning this pot by a significant enough percentage to make it the far superior play. Also keep in mind that even if a player on my direct left bets, I will still check/raise for value since I cant protect my hand and now I will still win a larger pot than if I had bet when my hand holds up. (I realize that had we known the player on our direct left had a betting hand we would rather bet the flop hoping he would raise but were not psychic)

“In the live game I have the most recent experience in, the Bellagio 15/30, I'd strongly urge the OP to bet the flop the vast majority of the time. In the Bellagio 30, however, I think the argument for check vs bet with the same action preflop is much stronger leaning toward the check side.”

Here’s what I think. If the opponent was playing online he should never ever bet this flop no matter what the limit. In 95% of all live games 5-10 and above checking will be the best play. Checking will be the best play so often that if one doesn’t have any reads, checking here should become just as much as a default play as raising with AA's after 3 limpers.



“Overall, assuming you bet-folded the turn, I think you played the hand well.”


I think he could’ve played the hand better.