Raising War with KQs in the SB

[Bulletproof Monk]

1. Hero
2. BB: 22/15/4 after 178 hands
3. MP2: 56/1.3/0.7 after 77 hands
4. CO: 39/34/0.7 after 494 hands
5. Button: 44/14/1 after 190 hands

5 players........................................

[shuinthehouse]

Giving MP2 top 56% and CO top 39% (should take out premiums b/c they did not raise), btn top 14% (should take out QQ-AA, AKs since he did not cap), and BB TT+, AQs+, we have very slim equity edge, would be a bit more if top part of MP2, CO and btn ranges removed.

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

4,198,046,580 games 27.261 secs 153,994,592 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 14.855% 14.84% 00.04% 623044708 1722309.00 { 33+, A2s+, K2s+, Q2s+, J3s+, T4s+, 95s+, 85s+, 75s+, 65s, A2o+, K4o+, Q6o+, J7o+, T7o+, 97o+, 87o }
Hand 1: 14.424% 14.37% 00.08% 603119633 3510065.50 { 44+, A2s+, K2s+, Q5s+, J7s+, T7s+, 97s+, 87s, A3o+, K7o+, Q8o+, J9o+, T9o }
Hand 2: 18.086% 17.02% 01.09% 714683144 45967285.33 { 77+, A8s+, K9s+, QTs+, JTs, ATo+, KJo+, QJo }
Hand 3: 31.129% 30.64% 00.54% 1286368777 22803961.33 { TT+, AQs+, AKo }
Hand 4: 21.506% 20.71% 00.84% 869422109 35060599.83 { KQs }

[Bulletproof Monk]

ok so that makes capping correct from a preflop perspective.

but the main reason we are capping is that by manipulating the size of the pot we can change the postflop dynamic.

when we make our flush or straight we always have the odds to chase, and we can be sure enough in our hand to put big bets and raises in which our opponents will be forced to call due to the size of the pot.

also given the fact that our SC makes its straight with many of the cards that give other hands a near-nut hand our implied odds go through the roof (eg. AJTxx for AA)

[Reaction]

[ QUOTE ]
Giving MP2 top 56% and CO top 39% (should take out premiums b/c they did not raise), btn top 14% (should take out QQ-AA, AKs since he did not cap), and BB TT+, AQs+, we have very slim equity edge, would be a bit more if top part of MP2, CO and btn ranges removed.

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

4,198,046,580 games 27.261 secs 153,994,592 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 14.855% 14.84% 00.04% 623044708 1722309.00 { 33+, A2s+, K2s+, Q2s+, J3s+, T4s+, 95s+, 85s+, 75s+, 65s, A2o+, K4o+, Q6o+, J7o+, T7o+, 97o+, 87o }
Hand 1: 14.424% 14.37% 00.08% 603119633 3510065.50 { 44+, A2s+, K2s+, Q5s+, J7s+, T7s+, 97s+, 87s, A3o+, K7o+, Q8o+, J9o+, T9o }
Hand 2: 18.086% 17.02% 01.09% 714683144 45967285.33 { 77+, A8s+, K9s+, QTs+, JTs, ATo+, KJo+, QJo }
Hand 3: 31.129% 30.64% 00.54% 1286368777 22803961.33 { TT+, AQs+, AKo }
Hand 4: 21.506% 20.71% 00.84% 869422109 35060599.83 { KQs }

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd be interested to see what happens if you switch KQs to JTs or T9s. Would EQ go up?

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
ok so that makes capping correct from a preflop perspective.

but the main reason we are capping is that by manipulating the size of the pot we can change the postflop dynamic.

when we make our flush or straight we always have the odds to chase, and we can be sure enough in our hand to put big bets and raises in which our opponents will be forced to call due to the size of the pot.

also given the fact that our SC makes its straight with many of the cards that give other hands a near-nut hand our implied odds go through the roof (eg. AJTxx for AA)

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, now you're moving in the right direction.

Why do you want to "change" the postflop dynamic? What do you expect it to be and what do you want it to be?

How often do you flop a straight draw/flush draw with KQs? How does the fact that BB basically always holds two broadway here affect these chances?

[Bulletproof Monk]

we want to bloat the pot as we have what is very often a black/white hand

we want to bloat the pot in this way in order to make sure our opponents are forced to call down, or even raise, with second best hands. we make sure we go past almost any flop with a bloated pot.

dont know. its good for us, given the increases to implied odds; note that we have +ev overall equity already, so factors like this are not releveant

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
we want to bloat the pot as we have what is very often a black/white hand

[/ QUOTE ]

Why not bloat the pot with 32o? That's a very black/white hand....

If you get a Qxx flop, do you consider that to be a "very black/white" hand? How will you play it given that BB 3-bet preflop?

[ QUOTE ]
we want to bloat the pot in this way in order to make sure our opponents are forced to call down, or even raise, with second best hands. we make sure we go past almost any flop with a bloated pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why not bloat every pot? None of your statements here apply to this situation directly. Make a statement that says something specific about KQs.

[ QUOTE ]
dont know. its good for us, given the increases to implied odds; note that we have +ev overall equity already, so factors like this are not releveant

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't know, but you're making claims as if you do know. You should rethink this very very carefully.

[Bulletproof Monk]

how is 32o a black/white hand?

consider how the hand will play out on a Qxx flop. would it have played out differently in a 3bet instead of a capped pot? which is better for us?

and it does apply to this situation directly. we have a hand that is likely to make us a 'nut' hand while others have a 'near nut' hand. i dont understand why thats so difficult for you to grasp.

this would be a no-brainer cap with 89s yes? we can agree on that? so lets take that as a starting point.

in what ways is this situation worse?
in what ways is it better?
are they significantly different?

maybe others can help me explain this....

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
how is 32o a black/white hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's mostly black (= bad) because it's a dump hand on a very large percent of the flops.

[ QUOTE ]
consider how the hand will play out on a Qxx flop. would it have played out differently in a 3bet instead of a capped pot? which is better for us?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. If you cap preflop, you're leading this flop 100% of the time. If you just call the 3-bet, you will check and take your perfect position with respect to BB to figure out how to proceed. Considering your backdoor draws (if any) and the action you see will help you to determine your course of action. Most likely, it will be check-call and see what the turn brings.

[ QUOTE ]
and it does apply to this situation directly. we have a hand that is likely to make us a 'nut' hand while others have a 'near nut' hand. i dont understand why thats so difficult for you to grasp.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know why you're so stuck on nut hands and near nut hands. How often does KQ have the nuts? How often does it have the "near nuts" (which in context I suppose is something like top two)?

[ QUOTE ]
this would be a no-brainer cap with 89s yes? we can agree on that? so lets take that as a starting point.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope. This is a terrible cap with 98s as well. This makes your probes that follow very pointless.

I'll give you a hint: STOP FOCUSING ON JUST THE TWO CARDS IN FRONT OF YOU!

[Bulletproof Monk]

ok so here is the first part of the disagreement:

[ QUOTE ]
Yes. If you cap preflop, you're leading this flop 100% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

i completely disagree....

talking about nut-type hands: i am referring to straights and flushes, when our opponents likely use those same cards to make top 2 and set hands.

everything ive talked about is talking about the other players cards and the dynamic of the game so stop using that empty statement if you dont know what it means....

its you that appears to be focusing on just hero's hand, referring to it as K-high and wondering how many times we flop draws without thinking of the implications with respects to the other players.