Meh spot

[woodguy]

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It sounds like the read makes it a fold. It's close, though. I think TT's pretty clear shove and 88 is a pretty clear fold.

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So you have AT in his range but not A9, or have 99 in his calling range, but not 77 or 88?

I think I agree with you, but would like to know why you are making a disctinction between TT and 99 here.

[woodguy]

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Therefore, folding and the associated 0 EV is clearly out unless some weird table dynamic is going on that you haven't told us about

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I know its tough to believe, but I really haven't been an idiot so far in this tourney. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I'm rediscovering my inner TAG since I realized that pushing 92o over a big stack open in LP is actually a TAG move and not a LAG move.


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I agree with evg. Shoving is slightly +EV at worst, possibly very +EV. Therefore, folding and the associated 0 EV is clearly out unless some weird table dynamic is going on that you haven't told us about.

Calling and playing a flop only makes sense if we believe villain we will frequently make an error when we push the flop.

EITHER

Calling when behind (e.g. AK on 752 flop)
Folding when ahead (e.g. QT on AT7 or even J9 on J33)

OR

If villain's postflop play will allow us to play perfectly. The most common example of this is a villain who will check behind when he hits while pushing when he whiffs. In this case, you would check any flop (obviously ).

Given your read on opponent, these errors seem unlikely so pushing is probably best.

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Very nice sir.

Thanks,
Woodguy

[Jiggymike]

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I think my plan would be stop and go here. Once the flop comes, you will have the FE that you sorely need and you might get him to lay down a better hand on the right flops, not allowing him to see all 5 cards (which is pretty much the principal of the stop and go as far as I understand).

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My hand is too strong to SnG and I usually end up making UTG play perfect. fnurt has a great thread recently about that exactly, its worth a read.

Also, the stack sizes are all wrong for an SnG

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I agree with your last comment that stack sizes are no good. However, I was assigning the raiser an unrealistically tight range, where he would call any push. In this situation you could actually get him to lay down incorrectly (TT on AQx board or similar) or at least prevent overcards from catching on you (AK on board of Jxx). However, given the stack sizes, the latter situation is not too likely. Giving the raiser a more realistic, non super-nit range, I think a shove is the best play. Folding seems pretty weak, 99 might be your best hand for a while.

[Jiggymike]

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My hand is too strong to SnG and I usually end up making UTG play perfect. fnurt has a great thread recently about that exactly, its worth a read.

Also, the stack sizes are all wrong for an SnG

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In this situation you could actually get him to lay down incorrectly (TT on AQx board or similar)

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Fnurt showed why this is wrong (mostly because it's unlikely). So just push your chips in I think, you are often behind or slightly ahead of a flip but sometimes you are better than that. I also don't know if 88 is a clear fold as an earler poster implied but it does become murkier since that makes one less pair you beat and one more that beats you within his range.

[0evg0]

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I think my plan would be stop and go here. Once the flop comes, you will have the FE that you sorely need and you might get him to lay down a better hand on the right flops, not allowing him to see all 5 cards (which is pretty much the principal of the stop and go as far as I understand).

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My hand is too strong to SnG and I usually end up making UTG play perfect. fnurt has a great thread recently about that exactly, its worth a read.

Also, the stack sizes are all wrong for an SnG

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I agree with your last comment that stack sizes are no good. However, I was assigning the raiser an unrealistically tight range, where he would call any push. In this situation you could actually get him to lay down incorrectly (TT on AQx board or similar) or at least prevent overcards from catching on you (AK on board of Jxx). However, given the stack sizes, the latter situation is not too likely. Giving the raiser a more realistic, non super-nit range, I think a shove is the best play. Folding seems pretty weak, 99 might be your best hand for a while.

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you are way way lost here.

if a stop-n-go is +EV here, then it is because it would be +EV to stop-n-go with any two cards here. and you'd need some ridiculous read on his postflop play to justify calling here with any plans when you are conceding you are behind his range. it has nothing to do with stack sizes.

and your comment about 99 being the best you see in a while is devoid of meaning, logic, or common sense.

soory.

[adanthar]

meh, I usually don't shove. I hate shoving into UTG raisers in general, and you're getting called this time by hands that might find folds elsewhere, so I wouldn't bother.

call and check/something most flops, I'm sure you know which ones and where.

[Jiggymike]

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I think my plan would be stop and go here. Once the flop comes, you will have the FE that you sorely need and you might get him to lay down a better hand on the right flops, not allowing him to see all 5 cards (which is pretty much the principal of the stop and go as far as I understand).

[/ QUOTE ]

My hand is too strong to SnG and I usually end up making UTG play perfect. fnurt has a great thread recently about that exactly, its worth a read.

Also, the stack sizes are all wrong for an SnG

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with your last comment that stack sizes are no good. However, I was assigning the raiser an unrealistically tight range, where he would call any push. In this situation you could actually get him to lay down incorrectly (TT on AQx board or similar) or at least prevent overcards from catching on you (AK on board of Jxx). However, given the stack sizes, the latter situation is not too likely. Giving the raiser a more realistic, non super-nit range, I think a shove is the best play. Folding seems pretty weak, 99 might be your best hand for a while.

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you are way way lost here.

if a stop-n-go is +EV here, then it is because it would be +EV to stop-n-go with any two cards here. and you'd need some ridiculous read on his postflop play to justify calling here with any plans when you are conceding you are behind his range. it has nothing to do with stack sizes.

and your comment about 99 being the best you see in a while is devoid of meaning, logic, or common sense.

soory.

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Actually after I posted this, I took a shower and thought it over and realized that my logic was exactly that - Stop and go would be +EV with any 2. And I realized that 1) that doesn't make any sense and 2) I am lost in this particular hand. I was hoping you would make a characteristically rude comment to correct me and you did that...sorta. I am still lost on this hand and am just going to read the other posts.

[woodguy]

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call and check/something most flops, I'm sure you know which ones and where.

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I have very good players telling me to push, fold and call.

I feel better about my own indecision as to the best line.

[jtomon]

I think I call 800 more and get to the flop. I'm checking just about any flop here assuming he is c-betting regardless. If the board is low I'm c-raising his bet, high cards and I'm probably gone. If the nine hits I get obviously get paid--I probably bet that flop assuming I'm well disguised.

[jtomon]

lol