The Fish Manifesto - Page 3

excession · #21 08-06-2007, 02:34 PM

I think you are wrong about the losing players not having fun - if a partner in law firm (intelligent but not a great player) who charges $800/hr wants to spend a couple of hours playing 1 table of 5/10 it's going to cost him (let's assume a 'healthy' losing rate of 10PTBB/100 and that he gets 80 hands/hr) 1.6x10x20 or about $320. Of course if he chosses to play $100 instead is will cost him peanuts..

He does this once a week or so on Friday night instead of going out for a meal or a show or whatever. It costs him a little bit more than other entertainment. It isn't going to ruin him and he doesn't care that PwnURAss69 is on 12 tables as he only sees one - what he wants is some action - at least the new breed of 8 tablers are more like 20/15 than 10/3 nut peddlers - they will give him the action and andrenalin he's after...

The people to worry about are the desperate gamblers playing above their stakes and having a go - ofetn these are the college kids moving up too fast to be honest- but folks like that are going busto anyway - to be honest often the sooner the better - for the wannabee pros is a salutary lesson in BR management, for the problem gambler it's a sign to get some help.

ChipFerFree · #22 08-06-2007, 03:45 PM

I think you have a valid point -- but I still think most people do have visions of potential greatness that wouldn't be assuaged by swimmin' in a kiddy pool.

One posted did say there where a couple Online sites that had 'beginner only' areas. I think that is fine, but that's about as far as I'd go with this concept. For that other guy with money to lose -- he wants to play with the pros -- he's not interested in training wheels I'm pretty sure...

Sevenfold · #23 08-06-2007, 04:17 PM

What the OP is asking for is actually very simple.

Now:

bottom level---fish/recreational players

medium level---OP

top level---regular winning players

His idea:

medium level---fish/recreational players

top level---him

other level----seperate shark tables away from him

blackize · #24 08-06-2007, 04:19 PM

What makes you think that the fish will inevitably leave? They're paying for entertainment. So long as they're getting action they're happy. And most of them delude themselves anyways by saying they aren't horrible they are just horribly unlucky.

[ QUOTE ]

Many of these concepts will be alien to the winners poker world which is centered on money and profit but look at it form other hobbies where enjoyment is key and you may see how poker's way of doing things seems odd.

[/ QUOTE ]

Poker is different as the enjoyment comes from the rush of winning/losing at stakes that have meaning to you as well as the mental challenge of the game. Forcing fish to play with fish takes away the mental challenge and forcing them to play certain stakes may mean they are no longer playing for stakes that have meaning to them.

[ QUOTE ]
It's reasonable that someone who plays a few hours a week may not want to pay money for tools or even spend time using them. The idea of studying a forum, doing EV calcs etc misses the point of playing for fun. You assume this means they are lazy but have you considered that they have already spent the day working in a real job. They want to enjoy their hobby. Why is your right to absorb the wealth they created just because you spent time working on your 3 bet frequencies. When you talk about justice you have to realise how subjective your view is.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a skill game man. The way score is kept is in money. Money has real world value. The best players will learn and get better at winning money. The only way to stop this without destroying the integrity and soul of the game is to get people to play for something without real world value.

morphball · #25 08-06-2007, 04:35 PM

These posts make me laugh because people don't get it. If you want to have fish, then you have to have sharks. Period. End of story.

The following generalizations obviously do not apply to everyone, but they apply to most of the people that play online.

1. Fish play because they want to become sharks. While they grind to the $10, they dream of the $25, and so on.

2. Fish don't just go to two tables because they are bored, but because they want to play 4, and then they want to get a second monitor and get to 8.

If you doubt this just spend 15 minutes reading the chat of any low buy-in table. They are full of up and coming Phil Ivey's and Durrr's, and a few dedicated ones will actually make it.

The fact that players make tons of money playing 8 or more tables is not bad for the poker economy, it's good. If players were not, then people would say you know what, this is rigged!

Also, these posts are disguised form of whining. Gee if I knew he was 8 tabling I wouldn't have tried to bluff him! So let me get this str8, you wouldn't have tried to bluff a good player but you would have tried to bluff a fish? Does not compute...you can alter this for any part of the game if the bluff example doesn't jive.

Assani Fisher · #26 08-06-2007, 04:39 PM

I understand the OP's intentions, and I'll agree with him that it is in poker's best interest to let the recreational player play with other recreational players but at stakes that have some meaning to them. However I think his suggestion is just ridiculous and would cause more problems than it solves.

My solution is amazingly simple, and I have to say that I'm shocked it hasn't been mentioned yet: Create certain tables at each stakes that can only be played by people not multitabling.

Assani Fisher · #27 08-06-2007, 04:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
These posts make me laugh because people don't get it. If you want to have fish, then you have to have sharks. Period. End of story.

The following generalizations obviously do not apply to everyone, but they apply to most of the people that play online.

1. Fish play because they want to become sharks. While they grind to the $10, they dream of the $25, and so on.

2. Fish don't just go to two tables because they are bored, but because they want to play 4, and then they want to get a second monitor and get to 8.

If you doubt this just spend 15 minutes reading the chat of any low buy-in table. They are full of up and coming Phil Ivey's and Durrr's, and a few dedicated ones will actually make it.

The fact that players make tons of money playing 8 or more tables is not bad for the poker economy, it's good. If players were not, then people would say you know what, this is rigged!

Also, these posts are disguised form of whining. Gee if I knew he was 8 tabling I wouldn't have tried to bluff him! So let me get this str8, you wouldn't have tried to bluff a good player but you would have tried to bluff a fish? Does not compute...you can alter this for any part of the game if the bluff example doesn't jive.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you 100% missed OP's point. He was in no way talking about fish who want to become sharks. He was talking about fish who are happy being fish.

There are many people out there that view poker as a game to play with their buddies over a few beers. They play for the fellowship and good times. They love retelling stories of their "crazy hands", which would probably just seem commonplace to us who play 1000+ hands per day.

These people don't have a place to play online anymore.

ChipFerFree · #28 08-06-2007, 05:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
My solution is amazingly simple, and I have to say that I'm shocked it hasn't been mentioned yet: Create certain tables at each stakes that can only be played by people not multitabling.

[/ QUOTE ]

I WANT to play with multi tablers. They cannot focus on each game the way I will. PLEASE PLEASE play at my table...

ChipFerFree · #29 08-06-2007, 05:03 PM

That's not to say I don't multi myself occasionally [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Assani Fisher · #30 08-06-2007, 05:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My solution is amazingly simple, and I have to say that I'm shocked it hasn't been mentioned yet: Create certain tables at each stakes that can only be played by people not multitabling.

[/ QUOTE ]

I WANT to play with multi tablers. They cannot focus on each game the way I will. PLEASE PLEASE play at my table...

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok...then you wouldn't play at any of these special tables. These special tables would be designed to give one group what they want without negatively affecting any other group.