calling for str8 on paired flop - Page 3

scott111 · #21 07-22-2007, 11:32 AM

Thanks for all the feedback. I believed at the time that PF call was maybe just break-even. I am making pf calls like that here to work on my postflop game. I fold this at live 2/4.

The river donk was not well thought out, thanks for the honestly on that, but he result was interesting in that I had one of the crazy cappers beat, CO had KJ. MP2 had QQ.

I am training for a week in Vegas at xmas. Is Stars .25/.50 a reasonable training ground? Do I need to go lower to find the same loose passive conditions? My only live experience is TurningStone where the 2/4 is much looser imo.

tyler_cracker · #22 07-22-2007, 02:19 PM

and your thread was going so well, too! just don't do it again.

Sushiglutton · #23 07-22-2007, 02:23 PM

I fold pf. Not closing action, weak easily dominated hand etc. I fold the flop. I fold the turn to cap.

Sushiglutton · #24 07-22-2007, 02:26 PM

I care about results.

tyler_cracker · #25 07-22-2007, 02:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I care about results.

[/ QUOTE ]

you shouldn't.

marchron · #26 07-22-2007, 02:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I am training for a week in Vegas at xmas. Is Stars .25/.50 a reasonable training ground? Do I need to go lower to find the same loose passive conditions? My only live experience is TurningStone where the 2/4 is much looser imo.

[/ QUOTE ]
I would suggest the exact right level, but unfortunately, no online site spreads games in quarter-penny/half-penny.

EGO · #27 07-22-2007, 03:10 PM

PF is fine. You're getting 7-1 (once UTG comes in for another bet), and have good relative position to the likely flop bettor. However, with most flops that "hit" you, you'll not be check-raising because your hand will be vulnerable, and in this spot you'll not be protecting your hand but padding the pot for a multi-way turn card. So, relative position isn't so important here. Anyway, 7-1 is enough for JTo, but you will need to play well post-flop.

You've got the idiot end of an OESD on a paired, two-flush board. Checking here is OK - I'd like to see if I can get a cheap price on my weak draw.

Hmm, it's two cold to us. This is where I would have stopped the action. It's a critical juncture in the hand. How big is the pot? 11.4 small bets and we have to call two - with the potential for it to be raised again. We are probably running a pot equity deficit here, so we -really- don't want to put in 3 or four bets. Is 5.7-1 good enough for our draw? I don't think it is, especially considering the chance we will probably be raised again.

How much of a dog are you against trips? How much of a dog are you against just an overcard and a flush draw? Don't know? Here you go:

Against a K: A little worse than a 3-1 dog.
Against A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]: A little worse than a 2-1 dog.
Against both: 6.3-1 dog.

It's the "horserace" lesson here. You might have enough to call against any -single- hand, but the combination of ranges is too much.

I'd fold the flop. If the pot were much bigger, I might call two cold here, but this draw is pretty weak.

Turn: MP2 pulls a check-raise 3-bet out of his ass here. Given the cap on the flop by CO, MP2 clearly went into this round intending on trapping the field. Making your hand while you are drawing dead is one of the worst places you can be - and the thought should have crossed your mind before you called the flop raise.

The river donk bet is spew. Everything after the cold-call of the flop raise is pretty suspect.

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The types of flops you want to see in multiway pots when playing JTo from the big blind are ones that don't put big hands/draws on the board, but connect with you in some way. If the flop were KQ5 rainbow, then it would clearly be OK to call the raise, and possibly even so with two suited cards on the board.

If you don't play medium offsuit connectors well in multi-way pots, then just fold pre-flop. When evaluating any hand pre-flop, you have to estimate it's money-making potential post-flop. A chart will NOT tell you this.

tyler_cracker · #28 07-22-2007, 04:08 PM

ego,

there's a lot of weak/tight and otherwise strange advice in your post, like this:

[ QUOTE ]
Against a K: A little worse than a 3-1 dog.
Against A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]: A little worse than a 2-1 dog.
Against both: 6.3-1 dog.

[/ QUOTE ]

where did these numbers come from? you're gonna have to show your work, i'm sure.

but anyway, this was my favorite part:

[ QUOTE ]
You've got the idiot end of an OESD on a paired, two-flush board.

[/ QUOTE ]

you're worried about spiking an A and then losing to the ol' 3-high straight (QKA23)?

KitCloudkicker · #29 07-22-2007, 04:11 PM

pf fine...IF you dont get married to TP mediocre kicker. flop ok.

fold the turn after it gets capped.

scott111 · #30 07-22-2007, 04:18 PM

Thinking back to the river donk, the thought going through my mind was that these guys are going to cap it and I planned to call it down anyway, so I bet out thinking it made no difference except that if they didn't have the nuts they might slow down. I also thought there was a small chance they both had AK or worse. I planned to see the river because I called for the str8 and then actually hit it. Late-night logic I guess.