Defense against the squeeze play...

[Garland]

[ QUOTE ]
If you felt there was a strong possibility of collusion, then leave, or request a seat change (it's usually ok if you clear it with the players, yeah?). That said...

Another 2p2'er (Bdaddy) and I were once accused of the same thing. He was sitting on my right and every time it was folded to Bdaddy in the CO or on the button and he opened, I happened to have a hand that was likely ahead of his. And we never went to SD. After one player started barking at us (this was the 3rd or 4th time this happened over the course of an hour), I showed a flopped bottom two pair and he showed a flopped top-bottom pair. And I folded to his flop 5-bet.

That gentleman no longer made any comments. Point is, I think it's difficult to correctly suspect collusion in a short game just because the two people know each other.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: seat change. No, it wasn't ok even if cleared by players. It was enforced by both the dealer and the floor.

In your case, it was suspicious to raise/4-bet/fold to a 5-bet simply because it's something that is "never" seen in live play. I can honestly say I've only seen it happen once in live play in the last 4 years, and I've played a lot of live poker in the last 4 years.

It's never difficult to suspect collusion. It is, however, difficult to correctly prove collusion. And even the appearance of possible collusion is very, very bad for the game.

Thanks for your thoughts,

Garland

[jesse8888]

I pm'ed this to Garland as the thread seemed closed, but he suggested I post it here. My two cents:

I don't play this high, but my general advice if that if you suspect collusion, just get up. Not because it's happening for sure or they have an advantage, but because they have gotten in your head and you're likely to play less than optimally against them. If I'm ever uncomfortable at the table, I change games, tables or call it a night.

[Chipspin]

[ QUOTE ]
...just get up. Not because it's happening for sure or they have an advantage, but because they have gotten in your head and you're likely to play less than optimally against them.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is really solid advice imo. Thanks for posting that.

[Cool Hand Luke]

I am not one who thinks there is rampant collusion around but is this couple both about 30ish, tall, and look like they could be brother and sister? He often wears a Yankkee hat. These two are definately shady. I once saw a 20/40 game break immediately when they both sat down.

[Jon1000]

i'm assuming this is bay 101. if u are asian, you can hear people pretty blatantly talking about colluding in this game and the bigger games. just get up and leave. sometimes the floor has been told about certain teams multiple times. it doesn't seem to usually lead to anything, but if you have a suspicion, tell the floor. just make sure to qualify your statement with i'm not sure. maybe they'll do something eventually

[piggity]

[ QUOTE ]
i'm assuming this is bay 101. if u are asian, you can hear people pretty blatantly talking about colluding in this game and the bigger games.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because being Asian means you of course speak and understand some kind of Universal Asian Language?

Can you be more specific about what type of collusion is being discussed (or do you not speak UAL)?

[Jon1000]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i'm assuming this is bay 101. if u are asian, you can hear people pretty blatantly talking about colluding in this game and the bigger games.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because being Asian means you of course speak and understand some kind of Universal Asian Language?

Can you be more specific about what type of collusion is being discussed (or do you not speak UAL)?

[/ QUOTE ]

right after i graduated i played mid limits in the bay area for like 6 months and got to know some players sort of well and others better. i'm young, don't look like a narc, and get along pretty well w/ most kinds of people so sometimes, an older guy would tell me to avoid a certain team or a certain player or to be aware of who was chimp dumping during tournaments. that kind of thing. one dealer i knew's boyfriend would openly talk to me about working w/ people in the 40-80 at bay 101. i have other similar stories but no i don't think i'll get into more specifics than that.

it's not just that i'm asian and some of the teams colluding are as well. I suppose it's that i was around a lot of different people and they let things slip b/c i speak a little mandarin and broken cantonese and never repeat anything to anybody.

[vmacosta]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i'm assuming this is bay 101. if u are asian, you can hear people pretty blatantly talking about colluding in this game and the bigger games.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because being Asian means you of course speak and understand some kind of Universal Asian Language?

Can you be more specific about what type of collusion is being discussed (or do you not speak UAL)?

[/ QUOTE ]

right after i graduated i played mid limits in the bay area for like 6 months and got to know some players sort of well and others better. i'm young, don't look like a narc, and get along pretty well w/ most kinds of people so sometimes, an older guy would tell me to avoid a certain team or a certain player or to be aware of who was chimp dumping during tournaments. that kind of thing. one dealer i knew's boyfriend would openly talk to me about working w/ people in the 40-80 at bay 101. i have other similar stories but no i don't think i'll get into more specifics than that.

it's not just that i'm asian and some of the teams colluding are as well. I suppose it's that i was around a lot of different people and they let things slip b/c i speak a little mandarin and broken cantonese and never repeat anything to anybody.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is pretty scary stuff.

or at least it would be if I hadn't played a few hundred hours in 20, 40, and 100 games at Bay101 and never suspected anything. I'm young, non-asian, laggy, prefer shorthanded, and listen to headphones real loud so if they were ever to try and collude against somebody it would prob be me.

[Garland]

Thoughts:Look, I didn't mean to create a lot of paranoia for live players around the Bay Area. This was the first and only suspicion of "collusion with intent" I've encountered during live play in 4 years.

What do I mean about "collusion with intent"? By my definition, it means betting and raising with the intent of squeezing out an opponent. There are a lot of instances at say Artichoke Joes $15/$30 with Chinese regulars where once two close friends get heads up after playing their cards hard (and with reasonable hands), they stop betting against each other and check it down to showdown. Is it collusion? It certainly has the appearance of collusion especially to any newcomer or novice who was involved in the hand, but it's not "collusion with intent". Is it bad for the game? That's a whole other discussion.

And let’s say there were some sort of subtle collusion/cheating I haven’t detected. The games are so good to me, that I consider it as part of the price of playing, like the rake.

To help alleviate some concerns here’s what happened:

Result:

It occurred at Garden City and not Bay 101.

At the 4th time this bet/3-bet play occurred, I actually said “I’m starting to suspect something.” out loud. If nothing else happened, I would have left on my next big blind.

She said “I’ll show.” They played their hand out and even when there was no showdown, button flipped over a suited JT and SB showed Axo. At least it showed she played her marginal strong hands hard against a steal attempt, and it seemed consistent with the other hands they played in that hour. I think if you see a type of play that isn’t the norm (bet/3-bet is normal once, but not 4 times within an hour) bells start to go off.

To Nate: What’s the significance of TT or RR moving this thread from B&M to here is.

Thanks for everyone's input.

Garland

[Nate.]

[ QUOTE ]
To Nate: What’s the significance of TT or RR moving this thread from B&M to here is.

[/ QUOTE ]

Garland--

No significance; just something to bet on. Figured it might give me something to sweat, and I'd have been a huge favorite besides.

--Nate