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#21
03-29-2007, 05:57 AM
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Re: NL50 - KK on A high flop
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] If he has TP, he doesn't care that you represent TP. If he doesn't have TP, you do not to want him to think you have a TP. The only reason to bet the flop is to make draws pay, you have no need to scare lower pairs out by representing anything. [/ QUOTE ] I disagree with this in so many ways that I cant bothered to type them out. [/ QUOTE ] Please be bothered, it's not that much more of an effort than what you already did. I do not in any way claim to be any kind of poker guru, but that's how my thinking goes, if you see holes in it I would love to hear you point them out. 
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#22
03-29-2007, 06:05 AM
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Re: NL50 - KK on A high flop
[ QUOTE ]
You should. a) It's crap to just come along and say "YOU'RE WRONG!!! DO YOU SEE WHY!" b) jimpo is pretty much dead on, imo and I've given various reasons why. You gave none. [/ QUOTE ] I didn't say he was wrong, I said I disagreed. Give me a few mins and Ill reply with my resaons.
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#23
03-29-2007, 06:21 AM
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Re: NL50 - KK on A high flop
[ QUOTE ]
If he has TP, he doesn't care that you represent TP. [/ QUOTE ] Unless he has AK or 2 pair of course he's going to care if you are representing TP. The hero reraised preflop so he's got to be worried about being dominated by a better kicker. [ QUOTE ] If he doesn't have TP, you do not to want him to think you have a TP. [/ QUOTE ] Edited because i misread the hand. My bad. [ QUOTE ] The only reason to bet the flop is to make draws pay, you have no need to scare lower pairs out by representing anything. [/ QUOTE ] As I said before you are betting for info. But also pot control. [ QUOTE ] "looks very weak" = so what, is the goal in poker to look as strong as possible all the time? [/ QUOTE ] No, but certainly most of the time. The only time you should be trying to look weak is if you have a monster and are trying to trap your opponent. This is not the case here.
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#24
03-29-2007, 06:26 AM
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Re: NL50 - KK on A high flop
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] If he has TP, he doesn't care that you represent TP. [/ QUOTE ] Unless he has AK or 2 pair of course he's going to care if you are representing TP. The hero reraised preflop so he's got to be worried about being dominated by a better kicker. [ QUOTE ] If he doesn't have TP, you do not to want him to think you have a TP. [/ QUOTE ] Edited because i misread the hand. My bad. [ QUOTE ] The only reason to bet the flop is to make draws pay, you have no need to scare lower pairs out by representing anything. [/ QUOTE ] As I said before you are betting for info. But also pot control. [ QUOTE ] "looks very weak" = so what, is the goal in poker to look as strong as possible all the time? [/ QUOTE ] No, but certainly most of the time. The only time you should be trying to look weak is if you have a monster and are trying to trap your opponent. This is not the case here. [/ QUOTE ] I disagree with this in so many ways that I cant bothered to type them out. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]
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#25
03-29-2007, 06:33 AM
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Re: NL50 - KK on A high flop
[ QUOTE ]
Unless he has AK or 2 pair of course he's going to care if you are representing TP. The hero reraised preflop so he's got to be worried about being dominated by a better kicker. [/ QUOTE ] But he won't fold it. I think your fold equity on a ragged board like this against someone with an A is close to zero. And he won't raise against you as the preflop raiser with a weak A. So the info you are getting is close to zero, too: he could be calling with an weak A or a PP or something. You gained no info that is worth a few bucks. [ QUOTE ] But you dont know that he doesnt have TP, so you bet for info. By checking behind after reraising preflop you are basically announcing to him that you have a lower pp and are scared of the Ace (I know this isnt always the case). Most opponents will then put a fair sized bet in on the turn whether they have the ace or not, as the villain did here. So what do you do since you have no idea what he has? [/ QUOTE ] See above for the part about information. The thing I bolded: Hero bet the turn from oop. Because OP showed weakness on the flop, it is less likely that villain will put him on an A and call him with smaller PPs. Because hero raised preflop, he won't be inclined to bluff-raise him without an A, since hero could be slowplaying AK or something. Moreover, the bet serves as a blocker against a small A. [ QUOTE ] No, but certainly most of the time. The only time you should be trying to look weak is if you have a monster and are trying to trap your opponent. This is not the case here. [/ QUOTE ] If villain has no A here (and no flushdraw - reason to bet for me, see above), he is drawing very thin. 2-5 outs. That gives us huge equity in the pot. Moreover we only have 2 more streets of betting to go so we controlled the size of the pot and get value from our hand by showing some weakness. I have to put out a reminder: all this doesn't mean you should always check the flop with KK when an A hits. It has to be a part of a balanced strategy, including a check with AK or AQ here sometimes or betting often with KK here. At least against thinking regulars. And don't forget about the flushdraw...
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#27
03-29-2007, 06:40 AM
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Re: NL50 - KK on A high flop
Could not resist the temptation [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] If he has TP, he doesn't care that you represent TP. [/ QUOTE ] Unless he has AK or 2 pair of course he's going to care if you are representing TP. The hero reraised preflop so he's got to be worried about being dominated by a better kicker. [/ QUOTE ] If your plan is to keep bluffing villains off pairs of aces when they raised their ace preflop and called a 3bet, in NL50, I think it will not be too profitable. [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] If he doesn't have TP, you do not to want him to think you have a TP. [/ QUOTE ] Edited because i misread the hand. My bad. [ QUOTE ] The only reason to bet the flop is to make draws pay, you have no need to scare lower pairs out by representing anything. [/ QUOTE ] As I said before you are betting for info. But also pot control. [/ QUOTE ] Betting close to 20% of your remaining stack "for info" = WTF? Betting close to 20% of your remaining stack with KK on A high flop "for pot control" = WTF? [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] "looks very weak" = so what, is the goal in poker to look as strong as possible all the time? [/ QUOTE ] No, but certainly most of the time. The only time you should be trying to look weak is if you have a monster and are trying to trap your opponent. This is not the case here. [/ QUOTE ] No it's not the only time. Looking weak when you have a non-monster hand that has your opponent drawing close to dead is acceptable also. Without the flush draw, this would be very likely here.
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#28
03-29-2007, 10:39 AM
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Re: NL50 - KK on A high flop
sometimes i think u shold bet the flop, but depends on your image and c/bet tendancies
i dont think betting the flop is the only way to get info here as by checking the flop and being checked behind not only does it keep the pot down it also indicates the villian hasnt hit it either if a 3rd sapde hit i would probly c/c the river, but i like the value bet on the river here as the A will induce a call by mid pairs, all in all i like your line
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#29
03-29-2007, 10:57 AM
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Re: NL50 - KK on A high flop
Nice discussion going on here! I agree that you should def raise a little more preflop, you want to take the pot down and there is no such thing as pot control with KK oop preflop. IŽd bet about 7ish.
Villain probably has a smaller pp or maybe he had the fd. I think your line was the right way to play it. If the turn was a spade I would have def slowed down! IŽd also check the river. this way you may induce a bluff. The cards heŽd call your river bet with would usually beat you and if he has a hand like TT he might even bet them for value.
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#30
03-29-2007, 12:14 PM
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Re: NL50 - KK on A high flop
I like betting the flop. I know a lot of guys like to check because our hand has 'showdown value', but either you are ahead or you aren't. If you're going to check and call a bet you might as well just bet. You are making it harder on yourself by checking IMO.
As you move up and encounter more aggressive players you are just asking to have the pot stolen. Once you check call the flop and check turn they will just keep firing. How often will you have AK or better there? Not as often as you have a pair that is scared of the A.
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