6/12 live-betting into a PF raiser with less than top pair?

[Frond]

Maliant, let's hear when you play this hand if ever?

[B_Movie_Fan]

[ QUOTE ]
fold>>>>>>>>raise>>& gt;>>>>>>>>>>>&gt ;>>>>>>>>>>limp

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is totally wrong. If limping is -ev, it is only slightly so, assuming that the OP is capable postflop and that the other players are not. I'm not saying that I necessarily advocate limping as opposed to folding pf, but I think that raising is a total spew and limping is, at worst, only a minor error. If the other players are indeed capable postflop, then ok, limping is almost certainly wrong, but what 6-12 game has 5+ capable postflop players?

Personally, I usually limp here preflop even with the table conditions listed because I will a) win the most when I am ahead and b) lose the least when I'm behind postflop. I don't know whether or not that is a very slight spew, but even the tight 6-12 or 10-20 players I play with are pretty clueless postflop and won't accurately punish me when I'm actually dominated.

As for the actual hand in question, I am a little uncertain what the flop was. Was it T52 with 2 diamonds? Or T52 with one diamond? Either way, I probably play it the same as the OP except that I check the river and see what the button does. If he bets, I use reads to determine whether I call or fold.

[BigBadBabar]

b movie fan, either it's a loose table with several limpers and not great postflop play, in which case i said i don't mind limping up front, or it's a tighter table in which a limp up front is more likely to get punished (perhaps this is my online experience but i have a fair amount of live experience too), and a raise is iffy but could clear out a lot of people, but a fold is probably best. you can't have it both ways [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

i was only going on the description op gave, of 4ish on average to a flop, and in the hand he posted a guy isoraised his limp pf. so it would seem like a tighter-ish table for live play, no?

obviously none of us are there with a total feel for that game like op is but all we can do is offer our hopefully applicable insights.

[BigBadBabar]

and yea i agree with you totally when you say that if guys aren't adequately punishing you by isoing or positional play pre or postflop in your live game, then that kind of hand becomes much more playable and probably only slightly -ev. i am used to tight aggro games online. so we basically agree on more than we disagree.

[B_Movie_Fan]

Right, and I'm used to the fishy, loosey-goosey live games. I realize that it may seem like 4 to the flop is a rocky game, but it's HIGHLY likely that the OP's game was one of TPs, not of TAGs or competent players.

That's why in those games -- even "tight" live games -- I think a raise is a total spew. You are only folding out a very small handful of hands that beat you, plus all the hands you beat. Limping isn't so bad assuming that the game is indeed merely a little tight with still bad players. Folding is obviously also just fine.

[TheCount212]

I see what you guys are saying. I play live 3/6 and many times I will raise UTG with a semi-solid hand like a suited A early in a session just to see how tight the table is. But mostly I'm limping the crap outta those suited As. I play pretty tight, so if I have a leak PF, it's definitely my fascination with flopping the nut flush draw. Over the long haul I figure Axs gives me the green light to see a flop.

[mrcunningham]

Yes, this table was tighter than we normally see live on a weekend night, but it was more weak tight than TAG. If I recall there was only on player who seemed any good and that was a young woman waiting for a 15/30 seat. In one of my replies above, I tried to make that point that normally I knee jerk limp AXs because there are an average of 6 callers with no more than one raise PF per orbit. In this case the knee jerk was wrong as the table was tighter than normal and probably should have engendered more thought on my part.

[Mook]

[ QUOTE ]
and yea i agree with you totally when you say that if guys aren't adequately punishing you by isoing or positional play pre or postflop in your live game, then that kind of hand becomes much more playable and probably only slightly -ev. i am used to tight aggro games online. so we basically agree on more than we disagree.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I live an hour from AC so I basically play live exclusively ... generally 4/8, 6/12, the kinds of games where people occasionally have a clue about preflop play but for the most part act like they have the Lee Jones book open in front of them on the table. When you're talking 5-6 to a flop, 10% of pots getting raised, hours going by without a street getting capped, A5s isn't "slightly -EV". It's solidly profitable most of the time. Maybe slightly -EV first or second in from EP, but that's worst-case. Now if you're talking 3/6 online vs. a bunch of 22/15 TAGs, then yeah, A5s is going in the muck unless I'm on the button or CO, but the next time I see this at a live 6/12 game will be the first. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I kinda hate that we've found ourselves down this rathole when I'd much rather be debating the relative merits of donking vs. CR'ing this T52 flop ...

Mook

[BigBadBabar]

i think i'd prefer a donk