Sumo-interesting QQ hand

[Pokey]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Q: What's the difference between the average hand raised by a 46/5.2 and a 16/5.2?

[/ QUOTE ]

A: Alot, obviously. See: results.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, that's a bad answer on several levels.

First, it's "results oriented." Results don't matter. In fact, the actual outcome in a particular hand is usual COUNTERPRODUCTIVE in the discussion of how the hand SHOULD be played. We play the hand front-to-back, and our decisions are made without knowing what will happen next. If I were dealt 22 and called an all-in raise preflop, I can't justify my actions by saying "look -- I turned a set!" At the time, calling was wrong, regardless of whether it turned out for the best THIS time.

Second, your answer implies that somehow, when two players raise 5.2% of their hands, the "bad" player raises worse hands than the "good" player. That can't be right.

[Fallen Hero]

[ QUOTE ]
Second, your answer implies that somehow, when two players raise 5.2% of their hands, the "bad" player raises worse hands than the "good" player. That can't be right.

[/ QUOTE ]

apart from the numbers, let's say we have a read here, the 16/5.2 is a nit, the 50/5.2 is a horrible player, capable of bluffing at the worst times etc. Although a raise pf from these players may mean the same to us a limp reraise into a huge field means very different things. Just a thought.

PS: I agree with everything you said about the numbers and being results oriented, just adding this to the discussion since I think it's relevant in similar situations.

[chris_garcia]

It seems pretty obvious that a fold is needed here. A limp re-raise is fishy as it is then a call by UTG+1 should send off signals.

[Delphin]

Next time, you put in the $20 reraise with QQ on the SB.

The way you played it, I'm probably folding my $4 to the limp-reraiser. You can call and pot the flop if no A or K appears.

[Godfather80]

[ QUOTE ]
UTG here is 46/5.2 and UTG+1 isn't a spewer. What do you think?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Button ($85.50)
Hero ($149.15)
BB ($24)
UTG ($100.30)
UTG+1 ($127.05)
MP1 ($210.10)
MP2 ($136.50)
MP3 ($69)
CO ($59.55)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Hero posts a blind of $0.50.
UTG calls $1, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises to $4</font>, MP1 calls $4, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Button calls $4, Hero (poster) calls $3.50, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to $20</font>, UTG+1 calls $16, MP1 folds, Button folds, Hero calls $145.15 (All-In), UTG calls $80.30 (All-In), UTG+1 folds.

[/ QUOTE ]

To me, the situation boils down to the fact that a non aggressive preflop player just limp reraised from UTG. For all intents and purposes, I treat this as an announcement of AA or KK.

If UTG didn't have AA or KK here, consider yourself very lucky. Players who only raise 5% of their hands preflop don't tend to get aggro-fancy. They tend to tell the truth.

[swedeD]

I agree. A player that plays 16%-18% of his hands will usually have a good hand here. They want you to think that they are trying to buy the pot (or/and they are afraid that someone will make a move on them and therefore they want a lot of money in the pot so they are pot comitted and don't have to make hard decisions later on.). For a tight (weak) player AA and KK are gold AND trouble.

A player with a vpip of &gt;40-50% and a low pfr usually don't have patience and want more action. Why should such a player try to scare away others when he finally got his KK or AA? They want you to play, so they will raise less (maybe even slowplay themself to death... [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img] ). At NL100 (party) I only expect to see aces or kings from 16/4 or 45/30 (good lags) players after such a huge reraise. (Sometimes, though, other players kan do this kind of reraises if they expect a call from mr BIG FISH)

Your play is dangerous but can be really rewarding at NL100. Good luck!

[Godfather80]

[ QUOTE ]

A player with a vpip of &gt;40-50% and a low pfr usually don't have patience and want more action. Why should such a player try to scare away others when he finally got his KK or AA? They want you to play, so they will raise less (maybe even slowplay themself to death... [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img] ). At NL100 (party) I only expect to see aces or kings from 16/4 or 45/30 (good lags) players after such a huge reraise. (Sometimes, though, other players kan do this kind of reraises if they expect a call from mr BIG FISH)

Your play is dangerous but can be really rewarding at NL100. Good luck!

[/ QUOTE ]

UTG already slowplayed his hand. Players who play 40-50% do get bored, you are correct. They play too many hands and call down with any pair. But, they DO NOT alleviate their boredom by limp reraising with mediocre hands (especially not when they're not particularly aggressive to begin with).

[starvin-garvin]

[ QUOTE ]
If I were dealt 22 and called an all-in raise preflop, I can't justify my actions by saying "look -- I turned a set!" At the time, calling was wrong, regardless of whether it turned out for the best THIS time.

[/ QUOTE ]

While I agree that looking at how the hand actually held up is results oriented, looking at what 2 cards Villian flipped over, and analyzing his play compared to his stats isn't the same.

But, the way OP used this hand to justify a blanket statement about "the difference between the average hand raised by a 46/5.2 and a 16/5.2" like that is results oriented and wrong..

[Godfather80]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If I were dealt 22 and called an all-in raise preflop, I can't justify my actions by saying "look -- I turned a set!" At the time, calling was wrong, regardless of whether it turned out for the best THIS time.

[/ QUOTE ]

While I agree that looking at how the hand actually held up is results oriented, looking at what 2 cards Villian flipped over, and analyzing his play compared to his stats isn't the same.

But, the way OP used this hand to justify a blanket statement about "the difference between the average hand raised by a 46/5.2 and a 16/5.2" like that is results oriented and wrong..

[/ QUOTE ]

Umm... where do you see what two cards villain flipped over? I can't find the results of this hand anywhere in this thread.

[starvin-garvin]

[ QUOTE ]

Umm... where do you see what two cards villain flipped over? I can't find the results of this hand anywhere in this thread.

[/ QUOTE ]
8th post