TPTK v. donk and tag

[Snafu'd]

To everyone saying check behind on the turn for pot control, what do you do on a blank river if sb shoves into you (please note that it would be around a psb)?

[Snafu'd]

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I think we can all agree on a pretty limited range given that flop cold-call:

Sets: 88/44 (he did not flat call JJ)
SC's: KQ/QT/Q9/T9/T8/98... diamonds.

But how many of those SC's will a 25/14 call OOP preflop? As much as this is micro-limit and people play dumb, I think there should be two obvious truths here:

1. A 25/14 is usually position aware and is a lot more likely to call in the SB looking to set mine than with an SC.

2. Some people slowplay sets on all but the most dangerous flops because you're supposed to slowplay big hands.

Check behind and play pot control. Fold to any river diamond, call 1/2 PSB on a blank, spike an A or J -> profit.

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What do you do on a blank and he shoves for a pot sized bet?

[You're No Daisy]

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Are you playing trips like that on a two-flush board? I'm not, but maybe I'm a donk (very possible, granted!)

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You can't always be scared of the flush when you have a set on a 2-suited board, especially in a raised pot and you're heads up. Also, if the board is 2-suited and you have one of those suits in your hand that eliminates one of the outs. You also have to remember when holding a set that some of flush outs are no good for villain since they fill you up. If our Hero bets $25 into this pot and villain shoves over top of him now what? In this hand, villain just smooth called a $13 bet (flop raise by Hero). Villain is semi-loose/aggressive and those stats aren't donkish by any means. Red flags are going up everywhere and I'm checking behind on the turn even though we have top two.

AC

[Pokey]

I'm more worried about a superdraw than a set. After the bet and raise on the flop, a relatively tight and aggressive player with a set is likely to just go ahead and push, especially considering how drawy the board is. I'm thinking his likely holdings are things like KQ, QT, T9, 76, or 65 diamonds, drawing to 12 outs and hoping that BB pads his draw. He might even do this with as little as T9 (OESD) or any two diamonds. It's also just barely possible that he's slowplaying an overpair (if he's fed up with you stealing and getting tricky/trappy) or that he's got QJ/JT and is hoping that you are FOS.

I just think it's more likely that villain is drawing than that he is super slowplaying a set. Since I just improved to the top two I'd bet $25 and call a push. On the river I'm checking behind on ANY card that doesn't give me a boat and I'm making a crying call if villain open-pushes a scare card (this turn bet commits me to the pot). Checking behind is just too awkward considering how many draws there are out there; I'm dreading almost half the deck, and so I don't want to have an ugly decision for lots of money when one of them hits. Deciding if a particular scare card killed me or not is never a fun chore.

[Miko]

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Hero, how are you playing? What is SBs perception of you?

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Similar to SB: 25/15/2.5, he did see me triple up from button w/ 54o when he raised AK utg and the the whole table cold called, MP(ATs) riased his flop bet, I called, he shoved, we both called on a A23r board.

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I think this makes it more likely he stacks off quite easily and he's somewhat of a douche.

That, plus the fact that I think it's likely he'll 3bet a set a lot on the flop makes this a bet to me.

I think he has a good (but not excellent, something like a pair+fd) draw most of the time, or something marginal like JK or JQ.

JAM!

[You're No Daisy]

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Your flop raise is a little too big IMO. Make it $10 instead. After the smooth call by SB, I'm checking behind on the turn (as hard as that may seem). This just wreaks of a set.

AC

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Please show me a hh of a tag playing a flopped set like this multiway oop on a super drawy board (obviously this may be one, but I haven't had experience with this line). I realize he could possibly be cold calling in hopes of keeping BB in the hand, but he could also be playing a draw this way as well since he has to figure that his fold equity may not be great since op has shown that he likes his hand. I'm shoving the turn to protect/get value from draws and because I can't fold top two if he bets into us on a blank river card.

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I understand where you're coming from but show me a hand history of a TAG who will call a raise OOP with a suited connector or suited ace and call an almost twice PSB on the flop when drawing...(and villain's stats aren't TAG...more like semi-loose/aggressive but not donkish by any means).

Here's my logic. There was a preflop raise by Hero. Villain has a pocket pair like 44 or 88 and has put Hero on a big or decent ace like AK-AJ or a pocket pair TT+. I'm ruling out villain holding JJ because he'd probably re-raise with it since he's OOP. Hero just raised the BB so villain might be thinking he's raising to price out any draws. Now that villain has seen this he could believe that Hero has a Jack or an over pair, hence the smooth call and he's planning on bombing the turn. Does this make sense?

This is a very tough spot for Hero and I might be willing to bet 1/2 the pot on the turn to see where I stand, but I really hate doing that because if I get called again, do I really know where I stand? If I get raised, I'm obviously done with the hand. Like I said before, the smooth call on the flop by villain raises a lot of red flags.

AC

[thoman8r]

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To everyone saying check behind on the turn for pot control, what do you do on a blank river if sb shoves into you (please note that it would be around a psb)?

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I call because a thinking villain doesn't shove against an UI pair of J's or a busted draw (which is our most likely holdings after we check behind on the turn).

So yeah, taking that line commits us to the hand if the river bricks.

[You're No Daisy]

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I think it's tight-aggressive.

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FYP

[Snafu'd]

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I'm more worried about a superdraw than a set. After the bet and raise on the flop, a relatively tight and aggressive player with a set is likely to just go ahead and push, especially considering how drawy the board is. I'm thinking his likely holdings are things like KQ, QT, T9, 76, or 65 diamonds, drawing to 12 outs and hoping that BB pads his draw. He might even do this with as little as T9 (OESD) or any two diamonds. It's also just barely possible that he's slowplaying an overpair (if he's fed up with you stealing and getting tricky/trappy) or that he's got QJ/JT and is hoping that you are FOS.

I just think it's more likely that villain is drawing than that he is super slowplaying a set. Since I just improved to the top two I'd bet $25 and call a push. On the river I'm checking behind on ANY card that doesn't give me a boat and I'm making a crying call if villain open-pushes a scare card (this turn bet commits me to the pot). Checking behind is just too awkward considering how many draws there are out there; I'm dreading almost half the deck, and so I don't want to have an ugly decision for lots of money when one of them hits. Deciding if a particular scare card killed me or not is never a fun chore.

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Pokey, this is exactly what I was trying to say except I couldn't word it nearly as good as you did [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img].

Question: Why do you prefer betting $25 over betting closer to the pot? Note that SB only has $38 behind on the turn which is just slightly more than a psb.

[yegon]

I guess it's possible that he plays a big draw this way, but I would expect a player with those stats to get it in on the flop with 12 outs and I seriously doubt he can call with like 8-9 outs getting 4.5 to 1 implied odds. He would need to stack us every single time he hits.