Society, Intuition and Logic

[bunny]

I dont think it's to do with ego, I think it's to do with utility. If you can logically demonstrate something then it is 100% certain to be true. Unfortunately, the class of assertions we can logically demonstrate is small due to limited knowledge.

So, although intuition has the advantage that it can apply to anything it suffers from the big disadvantage that logic is the only way to know if you're right or not.

[Taraz]

Can we all agree on what we are talking about?

The 'logic' we are referring to a longer, conscious process of figuring things out. It involves analyzing the situation in some sort of detail.

'Intuition' refers to snap judgments that we make. This is probably occurring on a subconscious level and does not involve stopping and reflecting on the choices.

While logic is normally the better way to go, there are actually many cases where this "intuition" is superior to logic. Any practiced motor skill actually gets worse if you think about it. You are much more precise if you just move. Also, lots of visual judgments work better on the intuitive level. Sometimes something just "seems wrong" but we can't articulate why.

Whoever mentioned the book Blink by Malcolm Gladwell was on the right track. He deals with many examples where our snap judgments are the best judgments.

[madnak]

[ QUOTE ]
While logic is normally the better way to go, there are actually many cases where this "intuition" is superior to logic. Any practiced motor skill actually gets worse if you think about it. You are much more precise if you just move. Also, lots of visual judgments work better on the intuitive level. Sometimes something just "seems wrong" but we can't articulate why.

[/ QUOTE ]

Humans are great at responding to physical threats, meeting physical needs, and interacting socially. Our intuitions in these areas tend to be good. Our intuitions in the areas of science, math, and philosophy tend to be awful.

Some people like to argue that intuition is the correct approach for determining whether God exists, whether humans have free will, and whether the universe was designed. I think that's the position relevant to this thread. And I don't think it can be supported.

[Splendour]

I had another question today which probably should have its own thread but the question grew out of this thread.

The question is: Is Genius more like Logic or Intuition?

[Taraz]

[ QUOTE ]
I had another question today which probably should have its own thread but the question grew out of this thread.

The question is: Is Genius more like Logic or Intuition?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a false dichotomy, I would say geniuses use both quite well. With that said, I doubt I would call anybody a genius who had poor deductive skills.

[Taraz]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
While logic is normally the better way to go, there are actually many cases where this "intuition" is superior to logic. Any practiced motor skill actually gets worse if you think about it. You are much more precise if you just move. Also, lots of visual judgments work better on the intuitive level. Sometimes something just "seems wrong" but we can't articulate why.

[/ QUOTE ]

Humans are great at responding to physical threats, meeting physical needs, and interacting socially. Our intuitions in these areas tend to be good. Our intuitions in the areas of science, math, and philosophy tend to be awful.

Some people like to argue that intuition is the correct approach for determining whether God exists, whether humans have free will, and whether the universe was designed. I think that's the position relevant to this thread. And I don't think it can be supported.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree 100%. I specifically didn't like the characterization of intuition as "shoddy logic" (cough, vhawk, cough [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] ) Intuition is pretty non-logical and is quite useful in certain scenarios. Clearly learning the structure of the natural world is not one of these scenarios.

[bunny]

[ QUOTE ]
Can we all agree on what we are talking about?

The 'logic' we are referring to a longer, conscious process of figuring things out. It involves analyzing the situation in some sort of detail.

'Intuition' refers to snap judgments that we make. This is probably occurring on a subconscious level and does not involve stopping and reflecting on the choices.

While logic is normally the better way to go, there are actually many cases where this "intuition" is superior to logic. Any practiced motor skill actually gets worse if you think about it. You are much more precise if you just move. Also, lots of visual judgments work better on the intuitive level. Sometimes something just "seems wrong" but we can't articulate why.

Whoever mentioned the book Blink by Malcolm Gladwell was on the right track. He deals with many examples where our snap judgments are the best judgments.

[/ QUOTE ]
I dont think the speed of decision is the essential distinguishing factor between logic and intuition, although I agree it is often the case. I think a logical approach involves only accepting what can be deduced from prior, accepted axioms or theorems. I understood Splendour to be labelling intuition "everything else".

I consider it at least possible to mull things over and still form an intuitive judgement. Similarly, I think kurto and vhawk have referred to intuition as a kind of "snap-logic". I think the logical amongst us will be better (ie more accurate) at utilising this form of "intuition" than those to whom deduction is more alien.

[Taraz]

[ QUOTE ]

I dont think the speed of decision is the essential distinguishing factor between logic and intuition, although I agree it is often the case. I think a logical approach involves only accepting what can be deduced from prior, accepted axioms or theorems. I understood Splendour to be labelling intuition "everything else".

I consider it at least possible to mull things over and still form an intuitive judgement.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess that's true. I would say in those cases intuition is often less useful if you go against the logical conclusion. Sometimes logic doesn't give you a good answer and you have to rely on your intuition though.

[luckyme]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I dont think the speed of decision is the essential distinguishing factor between logic and intuition, although I agree it is often the case. I think a logical approach involves only accepting what can be deduced from prior, accepted axioms or theorems. I understood Splendour to be labelling intuition "everything else".

I consider it at least possible to mull things over and still form an intuitive judgement.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess that's true. I would say in those cases intuition is often less useful if you go against the logical conclusion. Sometimes logic doesn't give you a good answer and you have to rely on your intuition though.

[/ QUOTE ]

That touches on the aspect I've been pointing to. let's use VarlosZ's situation - He knows intuitively that him mother loves him ( darn, I wish he'd have thrown in something about apple pie). We discover that she's been slowly poisoning him to collect insurance and arranging a sell him to the gypsies and keeping the pie.
which source of knowledge is considered 'right' or 'true'. His personal intuition or our objective analysis?

Don't you get tired of seeing the mother on TV saying, "My Jimmie would never do that" often just as they run the juice through him. or the neighbors saying of the child molester, "he was such a great guy." or seeing your friends or relatives getting conned by salesmen, politicians, gold-diggers, gigolo's, and the normal assortment of misreading peoples intent and motive.

Sure, our intuition in some situations is better than a coin flip, in others it's our worst enemy and in all the final judgment on whether the intuition was working for us or not will be by a logical analysis and we don't even have to know the intuitive mechanism to do the evaluation.

Related to this is a standard approach I use -- If I want to know the reasons BeckyLou did something I don't ask BeckyLou, I ask her friends and relatives, and it's not that I consider BeckyLou a liar I merely consider her human. Our intuitions of others maybe shaky but our intuitions about ourselves are often worse.

aside - like most people I have overconfidence in my reading ability, but I do have a decent enough public track record to be called into negotiations to act as the people observer, to identify the hard and soft spots in the opposition position for example. My approach to my own reads is - Trust but Verify.

luckyme