Serious Question for Christians and others

[Phil153]

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You claim the Church has been dead wrong too many times, when it only claims infallibility on matters of faith and morals.

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They claim that now, after centuries of looking like evil idiots.

Did you forget the inquisition? The witch trials (hint: there are no witches)? The brutal exorcism of the mentally ill (hint: it ain't a demon, retards). The teaching - as FACT - of biblical "truths" later found to be completely false.

To claim that such an entity is inspired and guided by God is hilarious, as is the more important claim that they have a monopoly on correct moral and scriptural intepretation. Multiple times they haven't even been in the ballpark. If you weren't brainwashed, you could see what all non-Catholics can.

[Phil153]

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And agreed Judaism >> Protestant + Muslim

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You think Catholicism is the way to save your soul, and yet you choose those who explicitly reject Jesus over those who believe in him. That seems odd to me.

[PLOlover]

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It'll be painfully obvious when it happens. Read Revelation, chapter 4 & 14 specifically.

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could you be more specific in your argument, I mean I have been.

[Peter666]

"Did you forget the inquisition? The witch trials (hint: there are no witches)? The brutal exorcism of the mentally ill (hint: it ain't a demon, retards). The teaching - as FACT - of biblical "truths" later found to be completely false."

All unsubstantiated bigoted rhetoric, spewed out to dupe a gullible public.

[Brad1970]

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It'll be painfully obvious when it happens. Read Revelation, chapter 4 & 14 specifically.

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could you be more specific in your argument, I mean I have been.

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Chap 4:

1 After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this." 2At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it.


From Chap 14:

14 I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one "like a son of man"[a] with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand. 15Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, "Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe." 16So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested.
17Another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle. 18Still another angel, who had charge of the fire, came from the altar and called in a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, "Take your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of grapes from the earth's vine, because its grapes are ripe." 19The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God's wrath. 20They were trampled in the winepress outside the city, and blood flowed out of the press, rising as high as the horses' bridles for a distance of 1,600 stadia.[b]


Because the Bible doesn't say the word rapture, I think this is where nonbelievers get derailed on thinking it has no merit. I would gladly change it to a "calling up" or "calling home" if it would make people understand it better.

[PLOlover]

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Chap 4:

1 After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this." 2At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it.


From Chap 14:

14 I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one "like a son of man"[a] with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand. 15Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, "Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe." 16So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested.
17Another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle. 18Still another angel, who had charge of the fire, came from the altar and called in a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, "Take your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of grapes from the earth's vine, because its grapes are ripe." 19The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God's wrath. 20They were trampled in the winepress outside the city, and blood flowed out of the press, rising as high as the horses' bridles for a distance of 1,600 stadia.


Because the Bible doesn't say the word rapture, I think this is where nonbelievers get derailed on thinking it has no merit. I would gladly change it to a "calling up" or "calling home" if it would make people understand it better.

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well it seems to me that chap 4 just basically says god gave john a vision, I don't know how that applies to rapture?

about 14, so youre saying the harvest is the good people who are raptured, who/what are the grapes? are there other versus like in isaiah or someting that support the rapture view of rev. 14?
I suppose I would have to use a concordance and look up every place in the bible where "harvest" "reap" "winepress", maybe some other terms are found, and see how they all relate.

I mean on my cursory reading you could be right, I mean frankly except for a very small number of biblical issues (like eating fat which is simple and unequivical), I have no deep understanding of the bible, to be honest. This rapture thing is something that I have heard dismissed by people who have not given a complete reasoning so it is hard for me to check out.

[IrOnLaW]

First of all, I believe in a supreme being that created this earth, the universe, and who knows what else.... I don't know what he is, some sort of energy, or a supreme being similar to us.... He might of created multiple universes, multiple life forms in other parallel universes, or in this one.... There is an unlimited amount of ideas of what God is and what he is up to....... So I am just seeking the truth, or the best estimate of it.....

Now, I suffer from agoraphobia, panic attacks, and anxiety, and a lot of it is based on these unanswerable questions..... What is reality, am I real, or simulated?.... Am I already dead and remembering, or am I actually alive and living?..... Is the world just going to suck me in and I will cease to exist?..... When I die, will that be it, no kind of existence whatsoever after that?..... Are there parallel universes? Did I exist before I was born, in another world, in another body, or in another universe?.... Am I the only one that truely exists, and everything around me is just a reality created by my mind(in which case, maybe no one is telling me what I want to hear, only what I need to hear)?..... Are we eventually heading toward a technological singularity?....Where there will be a genetic gap between the engineered and the non-engineered, therefore I need to prepare, by becoming super-rich so I can afford these technological advances.... What is beyond the universe, or is it infinite, continually growing to a more infinite state?..... So I am always looking for ways to adapt, to be on the cutting edge of existence, survival of the fittest if you must, however all these questions worry me.....

I worry about everything, when I see a plane in the sky, I imagine it crashing down upon me..... When I drive on the highway, I imagine the car flipping..... When I travel to places outside my home, I fear something bad is going to happen, I can't pinpoint, I just feel it, that something terrible is going to happen.... When I watch the news, I think of horrible things that could happen, and I have to change the channel.... However, it never does, but the panic and worry continue..... The sad part is I'm only fuc.king 25, I have a college degree, and I can't live a freakin' normal life.... I never had these problems till the last year of college when I started getting panic attacks.... I don't know if it was all the partying, drugs, or just the age when stuff like this surfaces.... Before then, I had no worries, I lived my life without worries, without fear...... Life was good.... Now I constantly fear for the worst.....

Therefore, I am seeking peace with God, and with faith, to help relieve me of these worries, and hopefully go to heaven for eternity, and continue to do what God wants of me.... The reason I question Jesus, is because I know several people that are extremely intelligent, and are completely convinced of his existence, and that only true salvation will be accomplished through him...... However, some of these rules and inconsistencies like Dinosaurs in the bible and the age of the earth, have me in a confused state..... Also, the idea of how good works will do nothing for you in the end, only if you truly believe in a half man-half god, that he died for your sins...... So you have to go on complete faith..... I do realize that the bible was written by Man, and therefore might not be completely and utterly accurate to how God wanted it to be, or if he had any part of writing it at all.....

One thing I do believe in is morality and ethics.... I dont' know if they are just culturally created, or if they are imbedded in my dna..... But I feel better when I do the right thing..... The church promotes morality, and a wholesome way of life, which seems good to me.....

I am seeking peace, comfort, solace in my life.... Not the fears and terrors that I face everyday..... I have had to turn to medicine to help me get through the day, but I am still not at peace even with it.... I don't want that... I don't need that, because I never did before my first panic attack......

In conclusion, I go to church, and I see hundreds of people content and happy, and at peace, because they are at peace with the lord Jesus Christ... They accept him in their hearts, and now have a purpose to live out his work..... I want to do the right thing, and have that peace and contentment in my life, not the fear and terror that I have faced.......

[Lestat]

Sounds like you could use some therapy. What's possibly ironic is that an atheistic mindset might help you most of all. When I finally realized there wasn't a god (and especially not a Christian biblical God), is when I stopped worrying about all that stuff. I didn't have to attach some symbolic meaning to everything. It is, what it is. Things are, what they are. A new world of freedom opened up to me and I realized the most important thing is to just live!

[PLOlover]

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I worry about everything, when I see a plane in the sky, I imagine it crashing down upon me..... When I drive on the highway, I imagine the car flipping..... When I travel to places outside my home, I fear something bad is going to happen, I can't pinpoint, I just feel it, that something terrible is going to happen.... When I watch the news, I think of horrible things that could happen, and I have to change the channel.... However, it never does, but the panic and worry continue..... The

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reminds me of a marion zimmer bradley darkover novel where the hero could see all the permutations of the immediate future

[Subfallen]

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And agreed Judaism >> Protestant + Muslim

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You think Catholicism is the way to save your soul, and yet you choose those who explicitly reject Jesus over those who believe in him. That seems odd to me.

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First---I'm an atheist. But if God exists, I think He probably cares about how people live and how honest and passionate they are about truth. IMO it's incredibly unlikely that He cares whether people give nominal assent to a specific set of incomprehensible doctrines.

Thus I recommend Catholicism as the religion I feel is most likely to guide OP to worship God "in spirit and in truth." (Assuming God does exist and such worship is possible.) I also pick Judaism over Protestantism because, again, Protestantism is something I know from 22 years of firsthand experience. And, trust me, it manages to be both spiritually impoverishing AND intellectually stultifying AT THE SAME TIME. Quite an accomplishment.