Theory Post: Dealing with Calling Stations.

[doctorjae]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That is proably very true - could you give me some tips? - i feel that game selection is a massive leak for me, i have never really given it much thought - i do not have HUD or PT at the moment (will be getting this in the middle of June) so can only use the stats the site (FTP) provide.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hello. I use PT and a HUD which is the most obvious help. If you don't have that, then I pick tables with either the highest percentage of players seeing a flop OR the highest pot sizes (often they go hand in hand).

If you sit at a table and everyone seems tight... leave.

PT and PAHUD are a worthy investment. I open 15 juicy looking tables at Full Tilt (which allows you to datamine) and datamine. I sit down at tables with multiple maniacs or calling stations. There are a lot of tables with all TAGS or TAPS... just not worth it.

[/ QUOTE ]

kurto..could u (or someone else) please explain what datamine is...also, what stats do you look for in PT once you have opened up the 15 or so tables...

thanks...

[Peter Harris]

[ QUOTE ]
So I gave it a shot, I started to limp almost anything...

... it lasted 30 minutes and I was up $75, turning around my losses at any of my 3 tables I played at.

[/ QUOTE ]

small sample.

play 100k hands limping almost anything and we'll see your winrate.

[ben wb]

[ QUOTE ]
there's little point in raising SCs and small PPs against them because there is no fold equity, unlike when u are playing against a table with VPIP of 20%

[/ QUOTE ]

Disagree, you don't raise just to take it down preflop, I'm happy to be in position in a raised pot against one of these guys post flop. I know when to bet my T8s and they don't know when to fold their J3o.

[ QUOTE ]

the problem with raising preflop with these weak hands is they are going to call you anyway so u are putting money in with the worst hand

[/ QUOTE ]

Well no, if they limp 60% of hands and they limp and call out of position with 40% then if you raise 20% they're likely to be calling you with the worst hand most of the time, also their post flop mistakes are magnified in bigger pots.

[Wondercall]

OP,

A little off-topic, but when you find players like these, don't leave until they are broke. This is the exact situation you want to be in.

[kurto]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That is proably very true - could you give me some tips? - i feel that game selection is a massive leak for me, i have never really given it much thought - i do not have HUD or PT at the moment (will be getting this in the middle of June) so can only use the stats the site (FTP) provide.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hello. I use PT and a HUD which is the most obvious help. If you don't have that, then I pick tables with either the highest percentage of players seeing a flop OR the highest pot sizes (often they go hand in hand).

If you sit at a table and everyone seems tight... leave.

PT and PAHUD are a worthy investment. I open 15 juicy looking tables at Full Tilt (which allows you to datamine) and datamine. I sit down at tables with multiple maniacs or calling stations. There are a lot of tables with all TAGS or TAPS... just not worth it.

[/ QUOTE ]

kurto..could u (or someone else) please explain what datamine is...also, what stats do you look for in PT once you have opened up the 15 or so tables...

thanks...

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know if anyone else answered this... excuse me if I'm repeating. Datamining is opening a dozen tables and having pokertracker record the hands played. It builds stats on all the players at the table. Then, when you do finally sit down you already know who are the TAGS, who are the maniacs, who are the calling stations.

When you have a HUD, it puts the stats right up on the tables. So when a seat opens at a table I can see who is playing what style (including who will I have position on).

I pick tables with overly loose and/or aggressive players who have deep stacks. (I don't sit at tables with all shortstacks.) Its pretty easy to find tables with at least two players seeing 35% or over of all hands. Last night I was at a table where no one except me had a VPIP of under 30%. Finding people with VPIPs over 50% is not too difficult.

[monkeymaps]

IMO if table conditions are right I think limping alot from any position can be a profitable strat BUT I think these conditions must apply.

-opponents have to be very loose post flop and call down very lighty (ex will stack off with any TP type of players)
-table has to be very passive preflop other wise you will be just spewing all the times you limp and you have to fold to a raise
-you are the best post flop player at the table
-I think this strat is better at FR table than 6-max
-game is pretty deep but your opponents dont adjust to this

I play a strat close this in LIVE FR 1/2 tables I only raise with premium pocket pairs and AK and AQs and try to see flops otherwise.
I play almost all PP within reasonable price preflop

This has been profitable strat for me in these games Im not sure if it translates well to online 6max but I think some table conditions esp at uNL might match those of a live 1/2 NL game.

Not saying this is optimal but is profitable strat if your opponents are really bad post flop.

[fsista]

This strategy is extremely bad and will not maximize your ev in the long run. To play against calling stations, or any other bad player, it's always best to isolate against them. In other words, you raise preflop with hands like J10/any pocket pair/any big ace (normal starting hand reqs) as well as scs. If you know that they call 80% of all flop ctbs then you're simply playing bad when you bet your 67s on a KJA rainbow board after you raised preflop. These calling stations will never be able to outplay you in any way, and you have the power of position. To use this to the max you have to build the pot preflop in anticipation of later streets to come and then control the pot size playing versus one opponent.

If you limp behind with 106o and 92s you're playing so suboptimally that I don't really know if the calling station or you is the bigger fish (these hands are, as any decent winning player already knows super easy folds).

[monkeymaps]

ok I dont know if my post came accross right I dont advocate playing ATC and I didnt claim this strat would be best in under most game conditions esp 6max online.

But in a game where people Stack of with hands like J8 on a J 4 9 flop for over 250BB frequently, I think your giving away equity preflop by raising with hands like 99 because these players dont care if the pot is huge or small they will stack off either way. As long as you dont make postflop mistakes in a game like this I think its ok to make the "mistake" of not raising when you have a hand that figures to be the favorite when you may win a huge pot by alowing these AWFUL players to stay in.


This has been a winning strat for me over a singifcant number of hours of live play.

This is a theory post so I put this here for the sake of discusion.

Anyone who plays live 1/2 NL want to back me up here?

[fsista]

Sigh. How can you know it's a winning strat? What makes you believe this makes more money then playing normal straight forward.

Do you mean that you, even when you enter an unraised pot, are able to build the pot size to 500bb on the river? (with only 4bb going in preflop). Pot size bet call-downs would get you ((4*3)*3)*3) = 102 bbs, which means he put half a buy in in there. You'd have to brutally overbet the pot to get all money in (or he'd have to raise a lot with these hands that you name: J8 on that board etc.).

Btw I think your J8 hand is a lie, when I moved through your limits (I only stayed for like 40k hands though) I never saw anyone stack off anything for 250 bbs, since none played that deep.

I mean, 99 is a premium hand. It's frequently an overpair and has several good flops. Your opponent doesn't hit top pair or better all the time you know.............

[gimmetheloot]

[ QUOTE ]
I can write this theory post in about 2 words:

Value bet

[/ QUOTE ]

Listen to you mod.