AKs 4 bet pre oop gets cold called

[chiTown22]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Please explain what makes a shove horrible here?

[/ QUOTE ]
LOL. Because he doesn't want you to fold.

4bet flat calls are AA/KK like 99% of the time. "ZOMG IF I RAISE THEY MIGHT FOLD".

This guy is retarded. He WANTS to save you money. Do yourself a favor and cooperate.

[/ QUOTE ]

"4bet flat calls are AA/KK like 99% of the time."

Does this mean that you would check fold on a K high rainbow flop, b/c the guy ether has AA or a set of Kings?

[bilbo-san]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The point is, there is only 1 hand that you can push out, and that is AK, MAYBE MAYBE MAYBE AQ if he is an absolute new donk. But as everyone is saying almost always this is AA/KK and even if its not, its sill prob 1010,JJ,QQ,KK,AA and hes not folding any of those.

[/ QUOTE ]

So the consensus is to check fold, b/c you do not believe a player will fold an over pair, fair enough. I can’t argue with that opinion.

So on the other side of this, how would you personally play a hand like JJ from the BB here?

Would you call a flop push?

What hand range do you put the SB on if he pushes?

If SB checks, do you bet the flop? If yes, what do you do to a check push from the SB?

[/ QUOTE ]

You're still looking for generic "how-to-play" rules when this is very situational. Depends on all the factors that I mentioned earlier. It should be pretty obvious to you, though, that putting in 1/3 of your stack preflop is a huge mistake if you aren't looking for showdown value unimproved, no matter what your reads are.

[SootedPower]

It's read dependent. You have to know what the player is capable of.

Most people on FT probably realize I am capable bluffing total garbage so they probably want to get it all in in this spot w/ JJ.

Against a nit, I probably fold JJ to a 4b or flatcall a 3b.

[chiTown22]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The point is, there is only 1 hand that you can push out, and that is AK, MAYBE MAYBE MAYBE AQ if he is an absolute new donk. But as everyone is saying almost always this is AA/KK and even if its not, its sill prob 1010,JJ,QQ,KK,AA and hes not folding any of those.

[/ QUOTE ]

So the consensus is to check fold, b/c you do not believe a player will fold an over pair, fair enough. I can’t argue with that opinion.

So on the other side of this, how would you personally play a hand like JJ from the BB here?

Would you call a flop push?

What hand range do you put the SB on if he pushes?

If SB checks, do you bet the flop? If yes, what do you do to a check push from the SB?

[/ QUOTE ]

You're still looking for generic "how-to-play" rules when this is very situational. Depends on all the factors that I mentioned earlier. It should be pretty obvious to you, though, that putting in 1/3 of your stack preflop is a huge mistake if you aren't looking for showdown value unimproved, no matter what your reads are.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course, everything in poker is situational, but it wouldn't be very preductive to respond to every posted hand question with "it depends".

I am not looking for a "How to" responds. I am looking for various opinions on the hands people have been nice enough to post. I want to see how different people would play a situation, and what their logic is behind that play.

So in your opinion... if I understand correctly is that if you decided to put in a third of your stack preflop, then without and obv scare cards you are prepared to put it all in?

[mark_foley]

with bb stack only at 100bb I would push preflop.

[orange]

jesus some of the advice here is horrible.

c/f flop. though if your on tilt like i usually am, i shove.

your 4-bet amt is fine as well. i dont really like 4-bet AI every time, makes it hard to counter light 3-betters.

[w33ktight]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
check/fold bro, you're done

[/ QUOTE ]

i'll never understand why everyone on 2+2 is in love with 4 betting with AK

[/ QUOTE ]

because it makes you money for when you have AA/KK, you can play it the same way. AK is a very good hand vs hands that may call/may fold to a 4bet like QQ/JJ. its unlikley somone has AA/KK when you have AK yourself.

[chiTown22]

I really must be missing something, where is the 4th bet?

SB raise
BB reraise
SB re-reraise
BB calls

[willw9]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I say he has a pp and you missed. check/fold it down unless A or K comes.. then re-eval.

[/ QUOTE ]

IMO, this is weak. You four bet preflop, AK is the only hand he can put you on that completely misses this flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

your advice is terrible

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT my brudda

[bilbo-san]

[ QUOTE ]


Of course, everything in poker is situational, but it wouldn't be very preductive to respond to every posted hand question with "it depends".


[/ QUOTE ]

This line of thinking is pretty dangerous. Here's a theorem I'm going to propose:

EVERY time you are 4-bet preflop, and it's not all in, the answer to "What do I do with XY?" is ALWAYS "It depends".

There are plenty of basic situations where rules of thumb can help you out a lot. This just ISN'T one of them.

I can tell you that calling here pre-flop, with the intention of folding lots of flops, is a big money-loser over time. There's just no way around that. It's just simple math. You can't hit the flop hard enough often enough for this to ever be profitable. Your math should be good enough to figure this out on your own, and if it isn't, I suggest you visit the stickies.

[ QUOTE ]

I am not looking for a "How to" responds. I am looking for various opinions on the hands people have been nice enough to post. I want to see how different people would play a situation, and what their logic is behind that play.

So in your opinion... if I understand correctly is that if you decided to put in a third of your stack preflop, then without and obv scare cards you are prepared to put it all in?

[/ QUOTE ]

So, I'll repeat myself in the hopes that this helps. What I do pref-flop depends on these factors:

1) Is Villain aware of my image, and if so, what is my image? Aggro? Nitty? Tight? Loose? Wackjob?

Ever get on one of those crazy runs of cards where you see QQ, then KK, then AQs, then AA, then QQ AGAIN in about 10 hands, and you've 3-bet every time, and you've never shown down? If your opponents do not know you, they probably think you're a whackjob.

Ever play a few hundred hands with an opponent, and you've 3-bet him 4 times and he folded? Was he folding legitimate hands at first? Is he getting sick of you?

Are you completely card dead, and this is the first time you've 3-bet, and it's very likely that this Villain thinks you're a nit?

What do the answers to these questions say about Villain's range for the 4-bet? What do they say about his calling range if you push?

2) What's Villain like? Is he a 60/40 tool? Is he a 16/13 nit? Is he 3-betting a CO raiser or a UTG Raiser?

What do the answers to these questions say about Villain's range for the 4-bet? What do they say about his calling range if you push?

3) Do Villain and I have a history? Does he know me well? Do I know him well, and if so, does he know that?

What do the answers to these questions say about Villain's range for the 4-bet? What do they say about his calling range if you push?



So, all I can say, if I called here preflop, it's because one or more of these questions led me to believe that it is more profitable than folding or pushing. This could be because Villain's steaming and bad enough to bluff any flop if I call, but not bad enough to call if I push pre-flop. Or (to pick an arbitrary example), I know this villain will always push AA/KK preflop but make smaller 4-bets with 99-QQ/AK (yes, people that predictable do exist), or because I know this guy always "traps" with KK+ (never 4-betting). Or there are many other possibilities.

It depends. Really, it does.