One for the micros: A 6-max hand

[bbbushu]

shillx,

you write gold.

i'd like to say that the FSDR is a very effective play in certain situations but i guess you're right that it's never the case when our hand is as strong as it is. i think a better reason why we shouldn't try such a play here with any hand is that if our hand is weak-ish and we're just interested in seeing showdown, trying to raise to check behind on the river is foolish when we get CHECK/RAISED on the turn (by a hand that's probably better or just boldly semi-bluffing).

entity discusses the reason i would check behind on the river - a lot of two-pair hands freeze up after getting raised like this on the turn. this hand takes place at a limit i've never played or even come close to playing at but at the .5/1 and 1/2, two pair calls the three-bet and checks the river more often than capping.

don't get me wrong, though, you guys are making a lot of sense to me,
bbbushu

[James.]

[ QUOTE ]
For example say you have A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] on a board of J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]). On the flop your opponent donked into you and you called. Now he bets again on the turn. This might be a good spot for a showdown raise since he might fold a better hand and it could prevent you from getting bluffed on the river.

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nope. you have to call a 3bet. the FSD raise is overused; hell i overuse it in general with position and marginal hands HU. like i have 66 on a T224 board w/ a fd out. if i'm donked on the turn i may pop it with the intentions of checking the river UI. but in this spot we can fold to a 3bet with impunity. sorry to derail. i was just reading your response and thought you used a poor example, IMO. if you have to call a 3bet it generally detracts HEAVILY from attempting a FSD raise. especially if you can just call on the end anyway and expect to have the best hand a reasonable portion of the time based on villains handrange(i.e. AK UI has some relative showdown value).

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
For example say you have A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] on a board of J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]). On the flop your opponent donked into you and you called. Now he bets again on the turn. This might be a good spot for a showdown raise since he might fold a better hand and it could prevent you from getting bluffed on the river.

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nope. you have to call a 3bet. the FSD raise is overused; hell i overuse it in general with position and marginal hands HU. like i have 66 on a T224 board w/ a fd out. if i'm donked on the turn i may pop it with the intentions of checking the river UI. but in this spot we can fold to a 3bet with impunity. sorry to derail. i was just reading your response and thought you used a poor example, IMO. if you have to call a 3bet it generally detracts HEAVILY from attempting a FSD raise. especially if you can just call on the end anyway and expect to have the best hand a reasonable portion of the time based on villains handrange(i.e. AK UI has some relative showdown value).

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I think your conception of free showdown raises is incomplete. I don't think you have considered the widest range of factors that can make a free showdown raise correct.

A free showdown raise on Shillx's example is decent for a number of reasons.

(1) Some better hands might fold (against weaker villains or those who like to read hands so they can make good folds)
(2) Hero sometimes has the best hand (ie, showdown value)
(3) Getting 3-bet is rare
(4) Hero has lots of outs
(5) Many of hero's outs improve to hands that would be able to value bet the river, regardless of whether villain calls or 3-bets the turn.
(6) Villain isn't likely to bet the river after your raise.

Of these, #3 and #2 in tandem are the most important factors to consider. You don't ever want to pull a free showdown raise if you think you'd end up mucking the best hand. If you think villain is aggro enough to 3-bet a hand weaker than yours AND your hand is very marginal, you're better off taking the call-call line.

When #2 is lacking (as it is in Shillx's situation), you really need #5 and #1 to make up for it.

In your case, #2 and #3 are both somewhat strong, but all the others are weak.

[Shillx]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
For example say you have A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] on a board of J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]). On the flop your opponent donked into you and you called. Now he bets again on the turn. This might be a good spot for a showdown raise since he might fold a better hand and it could prevent you from getting bluffed on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

nope. you have to call a 3bet. the FSD raise is overused; hell i overuse it in general with position and marginal hands HU. like i have 66 on a T224 board w/ a fd out. if i'm donked on the turn i may pop it with the intentions of checking the river UI. but in this spot we can fold to a 3bet with impunity. sorry to derail. i was just reading your response and thought you used a poor example, IMO. if you have to call a 3bet it generally detracts HEAVILY from attempting a FSD raise. especially if you can just call on the end anyway and expect to have the best hand a reasonable portion of the time based on villains handrange(i.e. AK UI has some relative showdown value).

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Calling down = raise/check as long as the other player will bluff the river (it is better if you fold when the flush card hits). And if the opponent can have a deuce then it is even better to call-call because you will sometimes spike your 2 outer and win four bets on the river. The only way that raising is better is if he will fold said flush draw or a ten but I would never make that assumption. Your best bet is that he folds 88 or something but how big of a parlay is that?

I guess we can debate how often people bluff but I've found that people will almost always fire again with nothing. I'm curious to see what other people think about this.

Also you don't make this play all the time. When you raise the turn you want to usually have AJ or KK or something like that. If he is getting say 4:1 on a calldown you want to have a hand 75% of the time or so.

[FUJItheFISH]

imo $hillx is the best.

[James.]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
For example say you have A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] on a board of J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]). On the flop your opponent donked into you and you called. Now he bets again on the turn. This might be a good spot for a showdown raise since he might fold a better hand and it could prevent you from getting bluffed on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

nope. you have to call a 3bet. the FSD raise is overused; hell i overuse it in general with position and marginal hands HU. like i have 66 on a T224 board w/ a fd out. if i'm donked on the turn i may pop it with the intentions of checking the river UI. but in this spot we can fold to a 3bet with impunity. sorry to derail. i was just reading your response and thought you used a poor example, IMO. if you have to call a 3bet it generally detracts HEAVILY from attempting a FSD raise. especially if you can just call on the end anyway and expect to have the best hand a reasonable portion of the time based on villains handrange(i.e. AK UI has some relative showdown value).

[/ QUOTE ]

I think your conception of free showdown raises is incomplete. I don't think you have considered the widest range of factors that can make a free showdown raise correct.

A free showdown raise on Shillx's example is decent for a number of reasons.

(1) Some better hands might fold (against weaker villains or those who like to read hands so they can make good folds)
(2) Hero sometimes has the best hand (ie, showdown value)
(3) Getting 3-bet is rare
(4) Hero has lots of outs
(5) Many of hero's outs improve to hands that would be able to value bet the river, regardless of whether villain calls or 3-bets the turn.
(6) Villain isn't likely to bet the river after your raise.

Of these, #3 and #2 in tandem are the most important factors to consider. You don't ever want to pull a free showdown raise if you think you'd end up mucking the best hand. If you think villain is aggro enough to 3-bet a hand weaker than yours AND your hand is very marginal, you're better off taking the call-call line.

When #2 is lacking (as it is in Shillx's situation), you really need #5 and #1 to make up for it.

In your case, #2 and #3 are both somewhat strong, but all the others are weak.

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you make nice points and all, but in shillx's example calling down is better almost always. if you have to call a 3bet and you have a hand that has showdown value UI, it detracts heavily from the luster of raising the turn with the intentions of checking the river UI. it is better to let him keep firing his QT or whatever worse hand is betting on the come or bluffing and we pick him off with our nut-non pair on the end. the frequency with which we are getting 3bet is a serious consideration, the most important IMO. and do you REALLY find a better hand folding in small stakes, online 6max LHE on a board like that? not very often, if ever. in his example we can get to showdown for 2 BB anyway. by calling down the only way we put in 3 BB is when we improve. raising in that spot may have you putting in 3 BB AND NOT EVEN SEEING A SHOWDOWN. and my example sucked, it was off the cuff and took me all of 1.5 seconds to come up with; but that wasn't my point.

[Shillx]

James,

1) We get 2 bets from QT no matter what we do. So the point about letting him bluff (or semi-bluff) is moot.

2) Who cares about going to a SD when we get 3-bet? That is the last thing I want when he 3-towns us. The whole "getting 3-bet is terrible" notion is probably a fallacy anyway. Just take a look at the EV of the plays when we have 2 BB of implied odds. Assume that we only win with a flush (20% equity).

Calldown = - 2 BB * 80% + 3 BB * 20% = - 1 BB
Raise = - 3 BB * 80% + 5 BB * 20% = - 1.4 BB

So we lose 0.4 BB on the raise if he 3-bets us everytime. If he 3-bets us 20% of the time we only lose .08 BB on the play.

Now let's say that he is a typical player and will fold a hand with 70% equity just 2% of the time in a 6 BB pot.

EV = 6 BB*70%*2% = + .08 BB

All we need is a 1:10 fold to 3-bet ratio to breakeven. That is why this play makes sense with a flush draw.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
you make nice points and all, but in shillx's example calling down is better almost always. if you have to call a 3bet and you have a hand that has showdown value UI, it detracts heavily from the luster of raising the turn with the intentions of checking the river UI.

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This hand has NO showdown value if you get 3-bet. That's why you can fold 66 in your example (66 on a T224 flush draw board). The only difference is that calling with two overs and a flush draw is a good call given the pot size and calling with a 2-outer is a bad call given the (assumed) pot size.

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and do you REALLY find a better hand folding in small stakes, online 6max LHE on a board like that? not very often, if ever.

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I think you get some folds. Notice the qualifications I gave. You can find players who will donk a hand like 88 and fold to a raise (especailly a wait-for-the-turn raise).

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in his example we can get to showdown for 2 BB anyway. by calling down the only way we put in 3 BB is when we improve. raising in that spot may have you putting in 3 BB AND NOT EVEN SEEING A SHOWDOWN.

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I'm a showdown monkey, but even I don't mind mucking A-high on the river after getting 3-bet on the turn. And you're playing to the worst case scenario when you keep insisting that putting in 3 bets is horrible. It happens probably less than 5% of the time on this board given the action. (See also Shillx's calculations.)