Not raising Big pairs PF

[threads13]

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I always raise big pairs in LHE. I don't always reraise big pairs though.

If I feel like I'm already getting the field I want to play my pair against, whether HU or 3way, then I will sometimes s/c to disguise the strength of my hand. If I want to narrow the field further, I pop it.

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What about if there are already several people that have already put in 3 bets?

[Little Wing]

This was one of the main points I got from Lee Jones' LLHE book. Good PF hands don't come along with enough frequency to allow you to slow play them without giving up too much. If you want to disguise what you have and switch up your play, occasionally try playing a bad hand like it was AA

[fishyak]

There is already a ton of responders all saying raising big pairs is EV+, I concur. Time to move on. I would not even add my vote to the landslide unless I felt I could mention something that has not been touched on by the other responders.

You hit the nail right on the head about making a note of who these players are. Live, there is a significant number of "old school" regulars who play low LHE at Commerce NOT raising big pairs PF. While this play is WRONG, take note of who plays this way. They play this way VERY CONSISTENLY. Be careful when you are in and hand with them, particularly HU, and they quietly hang around. They (generally) are not stupid in their post flop play. Your TPTK may not be good against them if an overpair could win and they are in the hand. They LOVE playing a stealth bomb. Know your opponent. IMO, average age, 60+. Average length of time as a player, 10 years +. Weak tight personified. I think I can point out almost all the 2/4 regulars at Commerce who do this, and most of the 3/6 & 4/8 players who have this habit.

I've posted before that I often do raise not AA from UTG only. Since I usually play the fewest hands at the table any raise tends to get more attention and it lets the field know that I do not raise every quality hand every time. Just as once in a while I would raise with a lower quality hand just so there is always a degree of doubt in my opponent's ability to put me on a hand.

[Cactus Jack]

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What about tight and agressive games?

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If I ever get in one, I'll let you know.

On the very rare occasion you get a table with someone who's raising more than once a month, you can limp, sure, but be sure there aren't six people between you and the raiser, otherwise, you're going to be a coinflip. Better raise.

[Cactus Jack]

fishyak, I understand what you're saying and I have some of the same problems when I raise UTG. However, I also will pick up one or two callers with 85s and QJo. Always. They WANT to play a hand. They are less concerned with losing to a better hand than they are not winning with something they are sure is a winner, or could be a winner, or that might be a winner because it's obvious you're bluffing, etc.

Sat night at the Venetian, I did everything but turn over AA from the BB and still got a guy suck out on me with KJ on the river. He was probably the only one at the table that didn't know I had AA. An hour later, I had my chips back and then some.

[Cactus Jack]

Last night at Red Rock, this old guy to my right wouldn't raise a hand. He had AT in LP once when I had A7 in the SB and never raised me all the way to the river. Another time, I had AQs in the SB and was gone on the flop, not raising PF, but he called all the way with AK. I learned something from the first time and wasn't going to value bet him again. You'll win a smaller pot, but lose a smaller pot, too. Oh well.

[fishyak]

CJ, I think this issue be location specific. When in LV, I raise AA UTG because no one knows me and no one will. I'm just a tourist. At home, Commerce, while the player pool is huge, since I play most weekends I usually face some regulars. So to clarify, in virgin territory, the play is to raise AA UTG. In known territory with some known opponents, mixing it up becomes an issue and I'll just call AA UTG to mix it up, even with some small impact on EV.

[JJH3984]

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CJ, I think this issue be location specific. When in LV, I raise AA UTG because no one knows me and no one will. I'm just a tourist. At home, Commerce, while the player pool is huge, since I play most weekends I usually face some regulars. So to clarify, in virgin territory, the play is to raise AA UTG. In known territory with some known opponents, mixing it up becomes an issue and I'll just call AA UTG to mix it up, even with some small impact on EV.

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Just raise more hands UTG. Unless you plan on balancing your range here (limp reraisinng with other hands), players will notice that you only limp with aces and kings UTG. If they won't notice, you should raise because they will call anyway.

[fishyak]

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Just raise more hands UTG. Unless you plan on balancing your range here (limp reraisinng with other hands), players will notice that you only limp with aces and kings UTG. If they won't notice, you should raise because they will call anyway.

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One point I do guarantee is that NO ONE has EVER noticed my change in play UTG. 1) It is too infrequent live, and 2) they are attentive to raises, not limps.

If I have sat a table for a while, my raises tend to be taken far more seriously than average because I raise only quality hands, 99+, that do not happen all that often. I doubt that you recommend that I raise EV- hands from UTG PF. It's easy to say raise more hands, but what point is there if your hand is not EV+ in the first place? BTW, I would raise all other EV+ hands UTG except AA and AK.

[bravos1]

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There may a few instances that I don't raise with a big pair before the flop. These are all limit holdem I don't know how or if it would change in no limit.
1) It's a super loose/passive type game and I have QQ or JJ in the SB or BB and 5 people have already limped in.

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YUCK! You are losing money by not raising here.[ QUOTE ]

EXPLANATION: You raise to make people fold or build the pot if you raise here it's likely everyone else will call anyway

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Of course they will, and I want them to, I [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] money!
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then when the flop comes without a Q but with an A or K you are dead. Even without an A or K it is somewhat likely that someone may have caught two pair, trips or a huge draw in this multiway pot.

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HAHA.. you already have MUBS and we haven't even see a flop!
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With AA and KK I'm still probably raising from the blinds but with AK,QQ and JJ I don't really see the point.

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The point is $$$, cash, benjamins, cheddah, what ever you want to call it! At least you are raising AA/KK.
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From early position yes because some may fold but from the blind no.

[/ QUOTE ] Why do you want people to FOLD??? Arrghhh, we are raising for VAL-YOU!
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2) I'm in a loose/aggressive or tight/aggressive game and I have AA or KK in the BB and someone open raises from late position.
EXPLANATION:From the SB you would raise for sure to isolate the raiser and lock out the BB from calling but from the big blind you sometimes may 3bet it but you could also just call hoping to disguise your hand and raise after the aggressive player bets the flop.

[/ QUOTE ] Again, you are losing $$ here. What happens when the guy checks his TT behind on a QJ2 flop? When I most likely have the best hand, I want to have other people putting money in my pot![ QUOTE ]

3) I'm in a loose/aggressive or tight/aggressive game and I haven't played a hand in a long time and it gets folded to me in late position and I have AA I may just limp.
EXPLANATION- The aggressive guys will see this as pure weekness and raise it and maybe if someone has something like AK they threebet it allowing me to cap it when it gets back to me.

[/ QUOTE ] Good job 3betting by the guy w/ AK, at least he is playing good poker. Most people have no clue regarding how the other people around them are playing. You can sit at a table and fold the next 30 hands.. then wake up w/ AA in EP and raise only to have 2 others cold call w/ QTs and KJo. Why do they do this? Because they have no clue what is going on around them, they suck, and they want to give you all their chips.

So you limp AA in late position and go 3 handed to a T42 rainbow flop and get run over by SBs T4o. I see this all the time and usually here "Damn, I can not win w/ AA evah!" right after.
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So I would say in general it's best to raise with all big pairs before the flop but there may be some circumstances when you can mix it up and play it a little differently to throw people off.

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In limit, there is rarely a case where this is true; at least in the games I have played up to 30/60 live.

I have seen it done in hyper-aggro NL games (referring to a LRR), but I suck at NL, so... no comment.

I will add that there are correct times to limp or cold call with hands like 99-QQ in tourneys, but we are not in that forum.