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#21
08-03-2007, 04:45 PM
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Re: Why People Claim Chains Of Deduction Don\'t Work For Human Issues
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Who makes that claim, maybe a few but not many? [/ QUOTE ] Almost all modern mainstream economists explicitly make this claim. [/ QUOTE ] sounds unlikely but its more your field than mine. example? chez [/ QUOTE ] Logical positivism. [/ QUOTE ] ? They're aren't many logical positivists, and its not a doctrine that denies deduction at all. Its just the idea that if there's no method of determing the answer then the question is meaningless. Or something like that, can't see what its got to do with economics either. chez 
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#22
08-03-2007, 05:13 PM
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Re: Why People Claim Chains Of Deduction Don\'t Work For Human Issues
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[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Who makes that claim, maybe a few but not many? [/ QUOTE ] Almost all modern mainstream economists explicitly make this claim. [/ QUOTE ] sounds unlikely but its more your field than mine. example? chez [/ QUOTE ] Logical positivism. [/ QUOTE ] ? They're aren't many logical positivists, [/ QUOTE ] Except amongst modern economists. The field was largely diverted into kookland in the 30s and has never recovered. [ QUOTE ] and its not a doctrine that denies deduction at all. [/ QUOTE ] What use is deduction if you deny there are true premises to deduce from? [ QUOTE ] Its just the idea that if there's no method of determing the answer then the question is meaningless. [/ QUOTE ] ? [ QUOTE ] Or something like that, can't see what its got to do with economics either. [/ QUOTE ] From one of the pre-eminent SMP douchebags of all-time, MathEconomist: [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] . . . economic truths can be logically deduced from certain axioms of human action [/ QUOTE ] This IS wrong. This is simply a form of intellectual masturbation. Economic truths don't follow from axioms, they follow from empirical regularities. Good economists observe these regularities, then model the likely reasons for them. The mathematical modeling helps understand and explain the important factors that cause the regularities and explains how changes in them should change the outcomes observed. Simply starting out with axioms and deducing things is terrible economics and terrible reasoning. Deductive logic only establishes things which are already contained in the premises and axioms. [/ QUOTE ]
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#23
08-03-2007, 05:23 PM
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Re: Why People Claim Chains Of Deduction Don\'t Work For Human Issues
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What use is deduction if you deny there are true premises to deduce from? [/ QUOTE ] No use at all. I assume we all agree with that. I still doubt many people deny there are any true premises about the human condition. [ QUOTE ] From one of the pre-eminent SMP douchebags of all-time, MathEconomist: Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- . . . economic truths can be logically deduced from certain axioms of human action -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This IS wrong. This is simply a form of intellectual masturbation. Economic truths don't follow from axioms, they follow from empirical regularities. Good economists observe these regularities, then model the likely reasons for them. The mathematical modeling helps understand and explain the important factors that cause the regularities and explains how changes in them should change the outcomes observed. Simply starting out with axioms and deducing things is terrible economics and terrible reasoning. [/ QUOTE ] Its terrible if your conclusions don't predict observed regularites and you still stick with your axioms. But I can't see anything that denies deductive logic applies to the human condition. Usually we abduce the axioms from the observed regularites, then deduce other conclusions from these axioms and test against observed results modifying things as we go. chez
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#24
08-03-2007, 05:49 PM
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Re: Why People Claim Chains Of Deduction Don\'t Work For Human Issues
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] What use is deduction if you deny there are true premises to deduce from? [/ QUOTE ] No use at all. I assume we all agree with that. I still doubt many people deny there are any true premises about the human condition. [ QUOTE ] From one of the pre-eminent SMP douchebags of all-time, MathEconomist: Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- . . . economic truths can be logically deduced from certain axioms of human action -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This IS wrong. This is simply a form of intellectual masturbation. Economic truths don't follow from axioms, they follow from empirical regularities. Good economists observe these regularities, then model the likely reasons for them. The mathematical modeling helps understand and explain the important factors that cause the regularities and explains how changes in them should change the outcomes observed. Simply starting out with axioms and deducing things is terrible economics and terrible reasoning. [/ QUOTE ] Its terrible if your conclusions don't predict observed regularites and you still stick with your axioms. But I can't see anything that denies deductive logic applies to the human condition. Usually we abduce the axioms from the observed regularites, then deduce other conclusions from these axioms and test against observed results modifying things as we go. chez [/ QUOTE ] I don't think I'm getting my point across; if it isn't too much trouble, giving this a listen would explain my point. Unfortunately I'm heading out. http://www.mises.org/multimedia/mp3/MU2006/Hoppe-1.mp3
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#25
08-03-2007, 05:56 PM
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This Thread Makes Me Happy
I thought I would get more heat about it. The fact that I didn't is just one more indication that Two Plus Twoers will one day rule the world.
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#26
08-03-2007, 06:01 PM
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Re: This Thread Makes Me Happy
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I thought I would get more heat about it. The fact that I didn't is just one more indication that Two Plus Twoers will one day rule the world. [/ QUOTE ] Most 2+2ers are far too clever to want to rule the world and far too clever to get there accidently. chez
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#27
08-03-2007, 06:08 PM
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Re: Why People Claim Chains Of Deduction Don\'t Work For Human Issues
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It seems counterintuitive, but I think you're right: people are more likely to stubbornly hold onto gut feelings than logical deductions. A gut feeling is so strong precisely because it comes from . . . well, the gut, and the heart. And since it involves human issues, so much the more difficult to discard a cherished position that might well involve a cherished person or personality. [/ QUOTE ] people generally have trouble changing cherished beliefs but its very rare to do this by denying deduction applies. More commonly they change other beliefs that they care about less so that what they want to believe does follow logically. Even those who deny deduction applies are attempting to make what they do believe follow logically from their other beliefs. chez
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#28
08-04-2007, 01:59 AM
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Re: Why People Claim Chains Of Deduction Don\'t Work For Human Issues
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] It seems counterintuitive, but I think you're right: people are more likely to stubbornly hold onto gut feelings than logical deductions. A gut feeling is so strong precisely because it comes from . . . well, the gut, and the heart. And since it involves human issues, so much the more difficult to discard a cherished position that might well involve a cherished person or personality. [/ QUOTE ] people generally have trouble changing cherished beliefs but its very rare to do this by denying deduction applies. More commonly they change other beliefs that they care about less so that what they want to believe does follow logically. Even those who deny deduction applies are attempting to make what they do believe follow logically from their other beliefs. chez [/ QUOTE ] Its not that they deny deduction applies. Its that they nitpick over minor flaws in analogies in a desperate attempt to hold on to both views. Even though those minor flaws are usually an insufficient reason to cling to both of them. (EG its OK to bomb houses which kill children but not OK to kill embryos for stem cell research. Because the analogy is imperfect, since the "child" killing is a necessary part of the process with stem cells but not for bombs targeted to kill Saddam. I don't believe even you think that is a major distinction.)
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#30
08-04-2007, 03:28 AM
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Re: Why People Claim Chains Of Deduction Don\'t Work For Human Issues
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Even those who deny deduction applies are attempting to make what they do believe follow logically from their other beliefs. [/ QUOTE ] Or they work backwards, backfitting, cutting and filling, and with much other spade work to reach preconceived notion(s) or cherished beliefs, many implanted while on mommy's knee. X must be true. To get to X; A, B,....Z is evoked. The Earth is the center of the universe. The Pope is the dictator of all morals. There is a soul. I have the winning hand. -Zeno, The Antipope
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Linear Mode
