Turning Hand Up Headup = Unethical?

[Al_Capone_Junior]

First off, this unanimous opinion unanimously displays the ignorance of the floor staff in this room. Heads up there is no harm that can come to the integrity of the game if one player chooses to show his hand. How it progressed from so perfectly legit that Doyle includes the tactic in S/S to an "underhanded" form of "angle shooting" that "takes away from the integrity of the game" escapes me.

My guess is that some super-nit had it used against him once, and he couldn't contain his obvious reaction to seeing his opponent's cards. Thus his opponent made the correct play against him and nit-boy threw a total hissy fit, not liking the fact that someone else outsmarted him. After all, the nits are s'poseda be the ones who benefit from any and all technicalities. But technically, his opponent did not break any rules. Thus the nit convinced the floor that this tactic was "bad." The floor buys it all, hook line, sinker.

But of course it doesn't end there. Nit-boy whines and whines, every day, all day long, never letting it go. He won't quit until he has yet another technicality that he can use to try and win the pot without the best hand.

I can only imagine how the floors, poker room managers and tournament directors were convinced that this long time tactic of Doyle's, described in what's often considered the greatest poker book of all times, has suddenly become underhanded angleshooting that harms the integrity of the game.

BTW, the floor's cop-out of "Doyle played in private games where this wasn't an issue" is bull friggin' crapola. Such a move is likely to be more of an issue in a high stakes private game (without security and cameras, where pulling an angle shot may get the crap beat out of you). Besides, Doyle played plenty in casinos (duh, las friggin' vegas). If the tactic were ok one place but not another, he would have clarified in S/S.

The dealer's response is equally disturbing. Unfortunately, it is true that turning up your hand might result in some moron dealer or floor deciding your hand os dead, even if there is no rule against doing so in the room you're in. Even worse is that some moron player may blurt out "his hand is dead!" This stupidity may get the ignorance ball rolling, with potentially disastrous consequences for you. To top it off, this dealer's response to you seems to indicate that it would be perfectly ok with them if your hand were to be killed, like they saw nothing wrong with that. .

The floor's "trying to discourage" turning up your hand is the most disturbing thing of all. Seems to me that you should either be allowed or disallowed, it's either legal or it's not. It doesn't make sense to discourage something that's perfectly legal. and far more common than most people think. (I see this tactic used about 4-5 times each week in cash games). The policy of a cardroom on this subject needs to be contained within the written rules of the room, not left up to the whims of whomever you happen to get in the box (or on the floor). Ambiguity and inconsistency is just not acceptable here.

Here's the important part: if you are going to make turning up your hand illegal, you need to make this clear to the players in the room BEFORE it comes up during a big all-in situation!

This whole damn topic pisses me off. It could be the poster child issue for the stupidity that's running rampant throughout the poker world.

Al

[MikeTheGeek]

Is it that it is confused for a call or fold? I know people do it but if some are interpreting it as a fold...

What happens if you intentionally flip your cards over every time the dealer deals them to you? (well, you will probably lose quite a bit) But for the sake of argument, is that allowed? If not, this shouldn't be either, all-in or not.

I don't have any major problems with it, it's just kind of silly... just play... don't turn your cards over on purpose... definitely calling the clock on you if you do.

[bav]

There are many rooms that do not allow you to show your cards heads-up. I don't think it's the norm, but there's a decent collection of poker rooms out there that don't allow it. The penalty for doing so ranges from being told "don't do that again or I'll come over here and tell you not to do that again" to "you can no longer initiate action but can only call" to "your hand is dead". So buyer beware.

And in tournaments it IS the norm to ban this and penalties will usually be assessed for doing this.

I think it's only underhanded if you do it in a way intended to induce your opponent to think you are folding face up. I've seen that happen a LOT in the baby NL games. If you announce "I'm not folding" as you turn the cards face up, that can avoid problems for all concerned (keeps the dealer from grabbing your cards, keeps the other player from doing something stupid). Folks who've never seen that move or who play in rooms where an exposed hand is dead just assume when you expose your cards that you've folded and then muck or expose their own cards. And that by itself might well be a good reason to disallow this.

[psandman]

My theory on this goes like this:

The TDA made a rule that you couldn't expose your cards in tournament play even heads up. There is a valid reason for this rule in tournaments.

However many people, including dealers and floorpeople don't understand the reason for the rule. They know that people do thsi "to get a read on their opponenet" so they conclude that the reason for the rule is that "getting a read on your opponenent" this way is somehow wrong. And if its wrong they can't see any reason to allow it in ring games.

[Jauron]

The main problem I have with this is it does tend to slow the game down if not done right, and it will likely lead to even more things being done that are far more wrong.

Overall I don't have issue with it so long as the player who is about to turn over his cards announces his action, it eliminates the confusion about what is being done and gives the other player an option to look or not to look.

BTW, if you are going to allow this you should also allow the player who bet last to show one card if he chooses.

[mxp2004]

[ QUOTE ]
The TDA made a rule that you couldn't expose your cards in tournament play even heads up. There is a valid reason for this rule in tournaments.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this a standard rule for all tournaments, or does it vary by casino? In a tournament at the Showboat in AC, I had an opponent expose his cards to me to get a read before calling. I won the hand, but I asked after busting the guy if the move was legal because I wanted to know the rule. The dealer said that a player could expose his hand once he was heads up and the other player was all in. I didn't bother to confirm the dealer's statement with the floor at a break. Was he right?

[Rottersod]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The TDA made a rule that you couldn't expose your cards in tournament play even heads up. There is a valid reason for this rule in tournaments.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this a standard rule for all tournaments, or does it vary by casino? In a tournament at the Showboat in AC, I had an opponent expose his cards to me to get a read before calling. I won the hand, but I asked after busting the guy if the move was legal because I wanted to know the rule. The dealer said that a player could expose his hand once he was heads up and the other player was all in. I didn't bother to confirm the dealer's statement with the floor at a break. Was he right?

[/ QUOTE ]

It varies by casino. They choose whether to use or not to use TDA rules.

[psandman]

Its a rule used in many tournaments, but not all.

However I am very surprised to hear that a Harrah's property is not using that rule as it is part of the WSOP rules.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

An excellent way to get the bandwagon rolling for players calling the clock on you. I just don't react and wait for them to decide. It's no big friggin' deal, I don't know why there's such a hullabaloo over this.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

What is the reason given by the tda for not allowing this in tournaments?