Guns in America

[Rococo]

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I remember Paul Phillips wrote what I thought was a very good blog entry on this subject a while back, one that, honestly, changed my mind a little.

(digs up link)

ah, here we go: http://extempore.livejournal.com/180946.html

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One other point on the Paul Phillips blog entry. He points to Hitler as evidence that tyrants always disarm the populace before imposing their will. The facts concerning Hitler and gun control are not as undisputed as he makes them out to be. As the attached article points out, numerous pro-gun groups dispute the Hitler/gun control argument. The author of the article is a University of Chicago law school professor, not just some internet hack.

Bernard Harcourt article

[renodoc]

Or, try this page for info on gun control and genocide.

[Jamougha]

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Or, try this page for info on gun control and genocide.

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The problem I have with that page is that the premise doesn't seem to follow from the evidence they present. OK, so governments that commit democide (genocide is not quite accurate here) often have gun control. It doesn't follow from this that democide is impossible, or even less likely, in an armed state. That's especially true when most places have gun control anyway.

Iraq, as a counter-example, appears to have had plenty of guns in private hands pre invasion. It didn't prevent the state killing large numbers of its citizens or running a brutally repressive regime. Same in Afghanistan.


On the whole I find that the quality of debate surrounding gun control is pretty awful, on both sides. Will gun control increase or reduce murders, violent crimes? Everyone is convinced they know the answer but AFAICT there's really not enough data to say. Do guns prevent tyranny? Well they're not sufficient and they're not necessary. Do they help? Impossible to say with confidence.

[Quicksilvre]

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Or, try this page for info on gun control and genocide.

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A counterpoint:

http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/gunsorxp.htm

I ought to mention that the idea of gun ownership doesn't bother me at all, but there are better anti-gun control arguments (many of which are in this thread) than trying to connect it with genocide.

[jeffnc]

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Bernard Harcourt article

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I wish we had more of his sort of clarity and logic:

NRA stands for the proposition that “it’s not guns that kill people, it’s people
who kill people.” The central idea here is that instrumentalities—in this case
handguns—are just that: instrumentalities. They are not to be blamed for what
people do wrongly with them. If you follow the logic of that argument, then
you would expect a member of the NRA to respond, when confronted with the
Nazi gun laws argument, in the same manner: “it’s not gun registration that
causes genocide, it’s people who cause genocide.”

There is no other conclusion to jump to here - simply that their logic is wrong and hypocritical. (This of course does not mean that guns should or should not be controlled.)

[jeffnc]

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I remember Paul Phillips wrote what I thought was a very good blog entry on this subject a while back, one that, honestly, changed my mind a little.

(digs up link)

ah, here we go: http://extempore.livejournal.com/180946.html

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A bunch of crap. His arguments are completely unconvincing (which is not to say his conclusion is wrong.) It's ironic that he states "In the context of the eighteenth century, 'well-regulated' did not mean 'subject to numerous regulations.'" since he took the whole militia reference out of context.

The wording of the constitution made sense in the context in which it was written, but not today. Which, again, does not mean citizens should not be allowed to carry guns. It just mean the original reasons are outdated.

A veiled attempt to imply that allowing Jews in WW II Germany-controlled Europe to own guns might have prevented the holocaust is outrageous.

By the way, Hitler's rise to power was by VOTE, not power. The Nazi party's first attempt at seizing power by force was a complete failer. The Nazi party obtained a 37% vote (which was very large given the fragmented nature of German politics at the time). The final "nail in the coffin" - the Enabling Act which essentially put Hitler into power as a dictator - was VOTED in (albeit after "eliminating" the Communist party by subterfuge.)

[DrewDevil]

Bringing Hitler/Nazi Germany into any argument is usually needlessly inflammatory.

I think you can make the point that it's a lot tougher to be a dictator/tyrant over an armed populace than an unarmed populace.

Also, I'm not sure I understand the argument about instrumentalities. I don't think anyone has ever argued that gun control CAUSES genocide--only that it facilitates genocide, for the genocide-minded.

[RoundTower]

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I was glancing through the 'numbers' section of the most recent Time Magazine.

One portion absolutely amazed me:

90
Number of guns in the U.S. for every 100 citizens, according to the 2007 Small Arms Survey, making it the most heavily armed country in the world. India has the second largest civilian gun-arsenal tally, with just four firearms per 100 people.


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This is almost certainly wrong. According to this wikipedia article, there are between 1.2 and 3 million firearms in private homes in Switzerland, for 7 million people.

[BigPoppa]

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90
Number of guns in the U.S. for every 100 citizens, according to the 2007 Small Arms Survey, making it the most heavily armed country in the world. India has the second largest civilian gun-arsenal tally, with just four firearms per 100 people.



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That stat seems way, way off.
From a Wikipedia article
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In a study of gun ownership in selected western nations, Canada's level of gun ownership (21.8%) was similar to France's (23.8%) and Sweden's (16.6%). Of the eight countries compared, firearm ownership was highest in the United States (48.6%) and lowest in the Netherlands (2%).

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edit: Canada's population is 33 million, so they'd have to possess fewer than 132,000 guns to be under 4%. They have over 4.5 million legally registered guns and probably that many more unregistered ones.

[HP]

but hey, before this thread gets locked:

Is it possible for the government to abolish the right to bear arms by way of an amendment?