Cheating at a poker room? - Page 3

andyfox · #1 11-09-2007, 12:34 PM

They might be colluders, but from the evidence you've provided here, I don't see it. A player in seat 1 would not need to signal his intentions to a player in seat 2, as others have pointed out. He acts first, he doesn't need a raise "signal." Lots of players inadvertently signal their intentions before it's their turn to act. That two players put in $520 to take $60 from the "mark" seems silly. I know, one can claim they are incompetent cheaters, but is this the best example you have of how they have colluded?

I have a 2+2 friend who play only occasionally. When he does come to the cardroom, I enjoy his company and I will leave my regular bigger game to play in his slightly lower stakes game and I will always sit next to him; we will ask for a table change if we are moved from a must move game to different tables. So it's not unheard of that two people come to the cardroom to play together at the same table.

Again, I'm not saying these two aren't cheating, but I don't see any evidence of it whatsoever in what you've posted here.

disjunction · #2 11-09-2007, 12:43 PM

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Again, I'm not saying these two aren't cheating, but I don't see any evidence of it whatsoever in what you've posted here.

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Of course you are right, unfortunately there isn't a lot of convincing evidence that can be gathered from one player.

So in this thread we've established that it is very very hard for a player to prove cheating, even in blatant cases, that the rooms don't care, we know that the dealers sure as hell don't care, and we've also established that any discussion of cheating is more likely to draw sarcastic comments and doubts than anything at all productive.

In fact the only thing that happens when you allege cheating, as far as I can see, is that you help the cheaters adapt to you.

I think I see why poker was dying before it got a temporary reprieve from TV.

andyfox · #3 11-09-2007, 03:10 PM

I don't know about the Bellagio, but I've been playing in So. Calif. cardrooms since the late '70s and I agree that the cardrooms basically don't care. The smarter cheaters tip generously and are therefore "friends" of the floor personnel. Gambling and cheating have always gone hand in hand, always will. When I first starting playing, the players dealt themselves, there were no house dealers. You can imagine what went on then.

That said, an accusation of cheating is a serious thing. If OP got some sarcastic commments and doubts it's because he made, IMO, a very poor case in his post.

billybeartku · #4 11-09-2007, 12:42 PM

I think you should work for poker stars support team eh? how can you be so sure they were cheating? your evidence is slim and no solid proof. If Bellagio wants to catch cheating, pretty sure they will go check on the tapes, hence, that's no your business. Maybe they just like to play pot against each other? oh, everytime i go to Vegas, I always sit next to my friend and we almost always play pot against each other. Therefore, there are a lot of raise and reraise to isolate other players so we could HU against each other (and yea, with some other ppl's money in it cuz we just isolated them). Am I cheating? you wanna report me?

*TT* · #5 11-09-2007, 01:07 PM

All -

I know Sue and her boyfriend in a hello-goodbye kind of way (if its who i think it is - very short asian girl, around 28-30, cute/thin, often looks angry, and her name is Sue. Boyfriend wears dark sunglasses, I think he has red hair). This isn't the first time they have been accused of collusion. I wondered if thats what I was experiencing the second time I played with them in a 15/30 game but I eventually realized they just play hard, and each other harder.

Does it look like collusion when they play? Yes. Do they need to collude? No, they are both better than average players. Is it possible? Yes... but it might be implicit rather than their intended goal.

andyfox · #6 11-09-2007, 03:16 PM

"Do they need to collude? No, they are both better than average players."

I've never bought into this argument. I've seen a billionaire give his golf ball a toe-nudge when we've had $5 at stake. I know Andy Beal insisted on playing the coporation head-up. I know Barry looks at his cards quickly and then covers them up. I've seen excellent players signal each other; I've heard them tell each other what to do.

My dad insists professional sports isn't fixed these days because the players already make too much money. Bull. The more they make, the more they want.

soah · #7 11-09-2007, 03:25 PM

Nothing described in the OP actually sounds like evidence of cheating. If they are actually trying to cheat then they apparently have not the slightest clue what they are doing.

I believe I may have played with them a couple times although I don't ask people's names when I play with them so I can't be sure... I didn't notice anything unusual but I wasn't really watching for it either.

*TT* · #8 11-09-2007, 04:14 PM

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"Do they need to collude? No, they are both better than average players."

I've never bought into this argument.

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its not an argument I am presenting, just showing that if it was that obvious that they were colluding then something doesn't add up. They play well and often enough that if they were colluding they would know how to hide it better. Placing a chip on a players cards is not a signal, there are much harder to detect signals that can be used. Many locals use the chip on the card to show intent, but its not collusion. Its more common to find poor players who are colluding than good players, of course that doesnt mean they didn't do it, it only means they are less likely to fit the profile of a colluder.

psandman · #9 11-09-2007, 04:17 PM

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Many locals use the chip on the card to show intent, but its not collusion.

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So what is it when players try to signal their intentions to other players? I agree that its not efefctive, but if they are actually doing it to show their intent then it is by definition collusion. If they are unintentionally showing their intnet that is a different thing.

*TT* · #10 11-09-2007, 05:14 PM

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Many locals use the chip on the card to show intent, but its not collusion.

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So what is it when players try to signal their intentions to other players? I agree that its not efefctive, but if they are actually doing it to show their intent then it is by definition collusion. If they are unintentionally showing their intnet that is a different thing.

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Intent meaning "I'm going to play in this hand, so everyone else at this table better stay out of my way because I have a good hand". Its retarded, but thats how people think.