4 bet bluff - Page 3

Profish2285 · #21 10-22-2007, 02:41 PM

Can I honestly even feel comfortable pushing with an A tho? Like I said, I really wasnt looking to see a flop, seeing as how he was a decent opponent I figured 9/10 times the 4 bet would have just taken it down. Wslee thats a good line come to think. I think I am going to have to try that next time I run into this problem.

Lego05 · #22 10-22-2007, 02:44 PM

Given the history I like the 4bet to be made occasionally and 9 or 10 is a good size. Fold to a shove. Now that he called check fold flop.

ama0330 · #23 10-22-2007, 03:51 PM

4-betting ATo is like going to war with a spoon

Profish2285 · #24 10-22-2007, 04:44 PM

The truth is when I did it it was not about having A10, it was about what he had and his wide range. I would have done the same thing here with 57s if I thought a 4 bet would get him to muck, now that I think about it, it probably would have been better off if I did do it with a hand like that.

thoman8r · #25 10-22-2007, 04:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The truth is when I did it it was not about having A10, it was about what he had and his wide range. I would have done the same thing here with 57s if I thought a 4 bet would get him to muck, now that I think about it, it probably would have been better off if I did do it with a hand like that.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that line of thinking is ok, and I do think he'll fold here a lot, but he didn't, and you have to c/f the flop, because you have very little pot or folding equity here.

Profish2285 · #26 10-22-2007, 04:53 PM

Yea, I realize the flop bet was bad in hindsight, and as I said, it didnt even feel too great while I was doing it. Gotta live and learn tho huh. Since hes a reg tho, hopefully he wont 3 bet me as often now that I should him I have the ability to 4 bet him. Note: I do not regret making the 4 bet and will do it again with a random holding if I think it will get a desired effect. And him folding isnt the only desired effect.

ama0330 · #27 10-22-2007, 05:03 PM

4betting polarises his range so badly that theres no way that you can have any FE on this flop, as almost every hand is going to call you. I would much prefer if this was a 3bet pot - i.e. he raises, you 3bet XX in position, he checks and you bet the flop. Once it becomes a 4 bet pot the margin for him to lay down is so thin that the variance becomes incredible.

Even if I like your 4bet preflop, you have to cf the flop - your bluff failed preflop and there's no way you can continue now.

EMc · #28 10-22-2007, 05:05 PM

Ok, Ive been thinking about this a lot (Ive taken a lot of dumps today). So hopefully this can help clear up this situation and maybe against all habitual 3 betters.

When I find myself 3 betting a lot, how do I think I would beat myself. I would get me to overcommit too many BBs with marginal at best holdings. Look for flop textures which may not have a. hit my range b. I cannot reasonably commit with certain holdings.

How do we do this exactly? Since we are OOP we should be check raising a lot. Thats clearly the way to get him to commit with marginal holdings.

IE.

100 BB stacks, we are the CO, he is the BTN

We open with xx to 4BB, He makes it 12BB( Id consider this pretty standard). We have 88BB left to extract.

The flop comes down a b c. The pot is 24BB. We check, he puts out say around an 18BB bet. Hence hte pot is now 42BB, of which he will have committed a lot with more often than not a marginal holding. We now can raise here (probably a shove) in which case we will have forced him to a decision where he has decent pot odds but will probably be behind, or have forced him to put in 30% of his stack.

This will lead to more variance.

The real question here is what hands and textures should we be doing this with. Maybe ill take a laxative so I can come up with this answer.

Profish2285 · #29 10-22-2007, 05:07 PM

If you are c/r-ing here to extract value, then c/r-ing here in this specific hand would be terrible wouldnt it?

EMc · #30 10-22-2007, 05:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If you are c/r-ing here to extract value, then c/r-ing here in this specific hand would be terrible wouldnt it?

[/ QUOTE ]

We are c/ring to either have him overcommit (value) or to fold. Either outcome is acceptable on the most part with a correct range of hands (part of the reason I dont like your hand choice.)