black people still not equals in america?

[L'ennemi.]

[ QUOTE ]

No it doesn't. Cultural priorities influence the results. The majority of Black America doesn't value education, or stable families, and its leaders have wrapped them in a cult of victimhood. With those handicaps they would need far better opportunity to get equal results.

[/ QUOTE ]

How do you explain those different cultural priorities? I mean it's is rather easy to understand for recent Asian Immigration, but for black Americans? they 've been there a long time...
How come they have'nt been able to fit in? Are they just lazy and don't want to be educated or did history have anything to do with creating those different cultural priorities?
The fact is succes is much harder for a black man than a white in the US. Simply, because on average he is going to grow up in worse conditions.
It's funny how people forgot how easy it is to get into an good college when born into the right family.
And the succes of Asians is laudable. It should not be however a reason to put other communities down.

[MrMon]

There are subcultures in black America that are just as successful as some subcultures in white America are unsuccessful. Culture is a powerful thing and is not easy to change. The roots of what we think of as black culture were addressed by Thomas Sowell in his 2005 book "Black Rednecks & White Liberals". I haven't gotten around to reading it, but it's an interesting thesis.

http://www.amazon.com/Black-Rednecks-Lib...0910&sr=8-5

As a comedian once pointed out, why is it that some people who have been here for generations can't find a job no matter what, but some poor Mexican guy can find one 15 minutes after his feet are dry? It may be somewhat racist, but it is thought provoking.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
does anyone else still feel bad that black people are not treated as equals in america?

[/ QUOTE ]
I do. People in this forum think if that we stick our fingers in our ears that we can make race based problems go away. The problem is, that you most definately are treated differently in this country by what color your skin is. Whether it's in the media, in court or where you live, being a minority is an excellent predictor of having a crappy life. Heck, the concensus on this forum is that Obama can't get elected because he is black.

Of course, there are two explanations for this: either you believe that minorities are inferior or that forces outside their control have led to this. I believe the latter.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would agree that some outside forces have led to some imbalances, but that is not the whole picture. What outside forces have led to the result that Asians now earn more than whites in the USA? How have whites been oppressed leading to this unequal result?

Not all unequal results are the result of unequal treatment. Some unequal results are the result of unequal treatment. The point about Asian incomes having surpassed white incomes in the USA proves the above statement, since there is no conceivable way to assert that whites have been discriminated against vis-a-vis Asians in America. Yet Asians now earn more than whites in America. So some group differences in results can and do exist without oppression being a causative factor.

edit: Of course, one might argue that whites haven't been oppressed vis-a-vis Asians, that whites are just inferior. I prefer to think it is due to cultural differences that Asians now outearn whites in America. Notably, too, Asians were highly oppressed in America many decades ago.

Thanks for reading.

[/ QUOTE ]

Some book or other did a study that showed that there was a very strong correlation between skin pigment and a bunch of social status things, like salary. IOW, asians are the 'closest to white' with some blacks, SE Asians and so forth, and then the absolute darkest blacks receive much more hardship and discrimination.

FWIW, I'm not entirely convinced that this result (if true) would be entirely the fault of culture or social conditioning. It has the hallmarks of natural selection, in that people are more mistrustful of darker skin.

It should be obvious that the basis, be it biological, social or cultural, for this type of discrimination does nothing to excuse it or make it acceptable.

[TomCollins]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
does anyone else still feel bad that black people are not treated as equals in america?

[/ QUOTE ]
I do. People in this forum think if that we stick our fingers in our ears that we can make race based problems go away. The problem is, that you most definately are treated differently in this country by what color your skin is. Whether it's in the media, in court or where you live, being a minority is an excellent predictor of having a crappy life. Heck, the concensus on this forum is that Obama can't get elected because he is black.

Of course, there are two explanations for this: either you believe that minorities are inferior or that forces outside their control have led to this. I believe the latter.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would agree that some outside forces have led to some imbalances, but that is not the whole picture. What outside forces have led to the result that Asians now earn more than whites in the USA? How have whites been oppressed leading to this unequal result?

Not all unequal results are the result of unequal treatment. Some unequal results are the result of unequal treatment. The point about Asian incomes having surpassed white incomes in the USA proves the above statement, since there is no conceivable way to assert that whites have been discriminated against vis-a-vis Asians in America. Yet Asians now earn more than whites in America. So some group differences in results can and do exist without oppression being a causative factor.

edit: Of course, one might argue that whites haven't been oppressed vis-a-vis Asians, that whites are just inferior. I prefer to think it is due to cultural differences that Asians now outearn whites in America. Notably, too, Asians were highly oppressed in America many decades ago.

Thanks for reading.

[/ QUOTE ]

Some book or other did a study that showed that there was a very strong correlation between skin pigment and a bunch of social status things, like salary. IOW, asians are the 'closest to white' with some blacks, SE Asians and so forth, and then the absolute darkest blacks receive much more hardship and discrimination.

FWIW, I'm not entirely convinced that this result (if true) would be entirely the fault of culture or social conditioning. It has the hallmarks of natural selection, in that people are more mistrustful of darker skin.

It should be obvious that the basis, be it biological, social or cultural, for this type of discrimination does nothing to excuse it or make it acceptable.

[/ QUOTE ]

Last time I checked, Indians (Apu not Tonto) were pretty dark and pretty successful here. Kinda screws up that theory.

[John Kilduff]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I would agree that some outside forces have led to some imbalances, but that is not the whole picture. What outside forces have led to the result that Asians now earn more than whites in the USA? How have whites been oppressed leading to this unequal result?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is very simple, immigration of Asian populations is a daunting task from a cultural and language perspective, only those with enough money to do it and a tremendous amount of motivation to want to do it are going to. You have a self selecting bias in favor of people who are likley to achieve high status.

[/ QUOTE ]

What I'm trying to show is that there can and do exist differences in group results which are unrelated to oppression or racial inferiority/superiority. The possible causative explanation you provide helps bolster this point.

In other words, it is important to realize that the statement: "unequal results must be caused by unequal treatment" is a fallacy. Again, groups have various peculiarities (and the peculiartity you mention may be one such) and those peculiarities help push groups in diverse directions which produces unequal results.

This is not to deny that unequal treatment is also very capable of producing unequal results, but it is essential for everyone who wishes to avoid fallacious thinking to realize that lack of equal results does not conclusively imply that the causation is unequal treatment, nor does it conclusively imply that one group is inherently inferior or superior.

Looking for a moment at the vast variety of cultures across the globe, it would be absurb to think that every culture is going to produce the same type of music, or scale of music, or type of architecture, or be as advanced as every other culture at architercture, or develop identical religions, or anything else. Diversity means diversity, not sameness. And diversity leads to more diversity, built on earlier diverse blocks and foundations.

There is a koan that asks: "The world is vast and wide. Why do you put on your seven-piece robe at the sound of the bell?" Should everyone be expected to come up with the same answer to that question? Should every culture, or every group, be expected to come up with the same answer, as long as they aren't inferior or oppressed? How about the same scale of notes in music? The American Indians used fewer notes than Anglo-Saxons used; traditional Chinese music uses a somewhat different scale.

I think a lot of people think they are for diversity but they don't really embrace what diversity implies. Diversity should be expected to provide diverse results.

I happen to think that there probably are some lingering effects (primarily financial) of the past oppressions of blacks in the USA. I also think it is a grave analytical error to presume that if the playing field is level diverse groups will produce identical results. Therefore, one can't point to unequal results and draw a firm conclusion as to the cause, or claim that a certain cause must still exist as long as results between diverse groups remain unequal.

Diverse groups will forever produce diverse results.

Thanks for reading.

[MrMon]

[ QUOTE ]
I think a lot of people think they are for diversity but they don't really embrace what diversity implies. Diversity should be expected to provide diverse results.

[/ QUOTE ]

"Diversity" is code for "We want people who look different, but think alike."

[mosdef]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think a lot of people think they are for diversity but they don't really embrace what diversity implies. Diversity should be expected to provide diverse results.

[/ QUOTE ]

"Diversity" is code for "We want people who look different, but think alike."

[/ QUOTE ]

No it isn't. Valuing diversity means valuing alternatives, including thoughts.

[TheRedRocket]

Not really, I don't spend much time thinking about it. Got my own life to worry about it.

[MrMon]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think a lot of people think they are for diversity but they don't really embrace what diversity implies. Diversity should be expected to provide diverse results.

[/ QUOTE ]

"Diversity" is code for "We want people who look different, but think alike."

[/ QUOTE ]

No it isn't. Valuing diversity means valuing alternatives, including thoughts.

[/ QUOTE ]

You haven't been around many universities lately, have you?

[mosdef]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think a lot of people think they are for diversity but they don't really embrace what diversity implies. Diversity should be expected to provide diverse results.

[/ QUOTE ]

"Diversity" is code for "We want people who look different, but think alike."

[/ QUOTE ]

No it isn't. Valuing diversity means valuing alternatives, including thoughts.

[/ QUOTE ]

You haven't been around many universities lately, have you?

[/ QUOTE ]

What you're saying is that the way "diversity" plays out in an institution where people are encouraged to think a certain way to get points on their tests is "what diversity means". A little much, don't you think?