Taxes and Timing

[manbearpig]

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do ppl really not know how much they pay in taxes? i mean if theyre on an annual salary and and its say 75k a year, dont they notice when they only get paid 55k?

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The notice that they get paid 55k, they don't think about what they could have done with the other 20k because they're conditioned to consider it as not their money. To them, it's the same as the company saying "We're paying you $55,000 to do the work and giving $20,000 to someone else".

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QFT.

Having to write a check at the end of the year for 20K would sure as hell be a lot more painful than having it taken out little bit by little bit.

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haha try being a poker player. i had to write a check for $85,000 last year. i really wanna know where it went. to bomb iraq? to feed laquisha and her 5 kids? surgery to remove a bullet from rodrigo?

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I almost wrote this in the OP but figured it went without saying. I would feel comfortable saying that the majority of people who pay taxes like you do are much more questioning of where the money goes.

[DVaut1]

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In terms of taxpayer awareness, which I think is what the OP is getting at, something I would love to see is an actual annual Federal itemizing of your $ contribution to various government programs. When people actually see how much money they personally contributed to something they marginally value, maybe we'd get a little more activism.

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Isn't this pretty easy to do? US federal budget expenditures are quite public; most taxpayers merely need to take their W-2 and run it against this information:

http://www.gpoaccess.gov/usbudget/browse.html

I realize most taxpayers probably *don't* do this, but it would probably take less than an hour to do and require nothing more than a pencil and paper (and a cheap calculator for those who aren't inclined to calculate by hand).

Now, that would get the taxpayer a rough estimate as to where their money goes -- x% goes to the Department of Defense, y% goes to the Department of Education -- and I realize a literal program by program itemization would likely take much longer than an hour.

But I doubt it would increase activism significantly. Especially if we itemize by 'various government programs', a vast majority of Americans probably pay less than $10 (and in many cases, mere pennies) for 90%+ of 'federal government programs', with the obvious exceptions of defense spending, SS, and Medicare/Medicaid, which polling has consistently shown are pretty popular. I'm sure "defense spending" could be itemized in such a way that would assuage many voters, if the information wasn't confidential and was freely available.

Maybe it's the case that alot of Americans don't realize how much of their tax dollars go to SS and Medicare/Medicaid, but I suspect many do and have come to terms with it.

[manbearpig]

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In terms of taxpayer awareness, which I think is what the OP is getting at, something I would love to see is an actual annual Federal itemizing of your $ contribution to various government programs. When people actually see how much money they personally contributed to something they marginally value, maybe we'd get a little more activism.

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Isn't this pretty easy to do? US federal budget expenditures are quite public; most taxpayers merely need to take their W-2 and run it against this information:

http://www.gpoaccess.gov/usbudget/browse.html

I realize most taxpayers probably *don't* do this, but it would probably take less than an hour to do and require nothing more than a pencil and paper (and a cheap calculator for those who aren't inclined to calculate by hand).

Now, that would get the taxpayer a rough estimate as to where their money goes -- x% goes to the Department of Defense, y% goes to the Department of Education -- and I realize a literal program by program itemization would likely take much longer than an hour.

But I doubt it would increase activism significantly. Especially if we itemize by 'various government programs', a vast majority of Americans probably pay pennies for 90%+ of 'federal government programs', with the obvious exceptions of defense spending, SS, and Medicare/Medicaid, which polling has consistently shown are pretty popular. Maybe it's the case that alot of Americans don't realize how much of their tax dollars go to SS, Medicare/Medicaid and defense, but I suspect many do and have come to terms with it.

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Which is why I think an itemized list would be a start, but having to actually write that check at the end of the year would create a lot more activism. Its easy to give a dollar here and there, but added up maybe it wouldn't be so easy.

[John Kilduff]

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In terms of taxpayer awareness, which I think is what the OP is getting at, something I would love to see is an actual annual Federal itemizing of your $ contribution to various government programs. When people actually see how much money they personally contributed to something they marginally value, maybe we'd get a little more activism.

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Isn't this pretty easy to do? US federal budget expenditures are quite public; most taxpayers merely need to take their W-2 and run it against this information:

http://www.gpoaccess.gov/usbudget/browse.html

I realize most taxpayers probably *don't* do this, but it would probably take less than an hour to do and require nothing more than a pencil and paper (and a cheap calculator for those who aren't inclined to calculate by hand).

Now, that would get the taxpayer a rough estimate as to where their money goes -- x% goes to the Department of Defense, y% goes to the Department of Education -- and I realize a literal program by program itemization would likely take much longer than an hour.

But I doubt it would increase activism significantly. Especially if we itemize by 'various government programs', a vast majority of Americans probably pay pennies for 90%+ of 'federal government programs', with the obvious exceptions of defense spending, SS, and Medicare/Medicaid, which polling has consistently shown are pretty popular. Maybe it's the case that alot of Americans don't realize how much of their tax dollars go to SS, Medicare/Medicaid and defense, but I suspect many do and have come to terms with it.

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Which is why I think an itemized list would be a start, but having to actually write that check at the end of the year would create a lot more activism. Its easy to give a dollar here and there, but added up maybe it wouldn't be so easy.

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Yes, I think an itemized bill at the end of each year (or quarter) would do the trick pretty nicely. (e.g. "um, NO, I do not want to pay $359 this quarter to keep our troops in Iraq, or $22 to keep our troops in South Korea...and what the heck are these other things I never even heard of here, listed at $8, $14, and $12.95...omg, it goes on, there are like 100 things I never even heard of adding up to... [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] ...F-this, it's time to join the email/phone call campaign to tell our Congressmen they're OUT next year if they keep this crap up.")

The thing is, special interests are heard but average America usually isn't because average America hasn't generally been loud and forceful enough (except recently re. the phony illegal immigration bill)...BUT...if Americans got bills like this instead of withholding, I'll bet the groundswell of sentiment to slash spending would pyramid quickly.

[adios]

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....um, NO, I do not want to pay $359 this quarter to keep our troops in Iraq....

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The war on Iraq is off budget, not part of the ongoing budget so I guess it doesn't count [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

Seriously IMO the data would need to be presented without the "veil" of government accounting methods.

[natedogg]

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This might belong in some other thread but I would really like to get the forums opinion on this.

I am of the opinion that the majority of US citizens are unaware of the amount they give to government every year. I mean, I think people have a general idea (too much!), but when it comes down to it they dont really know and dont really care.

I think the problem lies in how taxes are collected. By being directly siphoned out of paychecks, or tacked on to buying this or that, taxes become this unavoidable cost of life. You never even see 25+% of your paycheck every two weeks. It is easy to not miss what you never had.

What kind of uprising would we see against government spending and taxation if every citizen had to write a check at the end of every month or year for the same amount that is right now just taken from them?

I would predict a much different political landscape than the one we have now.

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Of course. Everyone knows that. This is why Milton Friedman said the biggest regret he had was helping the federal government develop the paycheck witholding system. Everyone knows, especially those in power who depend on it, that if we all had to write an actual check for our taxes we'd be paying a lot less of it and there'd be a lot less for Congress to squander on nonsense and then claim it solved a problem for you.

natedogg

[AlexM]

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haha try being a poker player. i had to write a check for $85,000 last year. i really wanna know where it went. to bomb iraq? to feed laquisha and her 5 kids? surgery to remove a bullet from rodrigo?

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will you teach me how to play poker?

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Try this site:

www.twoplustwo.com

[Luxoris]

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do ppl really not know how much they pay in taxes? i mean if theyre on an annual salary and and its say 75k a year, dont they notice when they only get paid 55k?

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Of course they know. This entire thread is a strawman.

[pvn]

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do ppl really not know how much they pay in taxes? i mean if theyre on an annual salary and and its say 75k a year, dont they notice when they only get paid 55k?

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Of course they know. This entire thread is a strawman.

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Wrong. If you asked 100 people how much they paid just in federal income tax last year - an amount that is explicitly listed on a piece of paper they signed and mailed into the government - I'd be surprised if more than 5 could tell you. Now consider all the other taxes people pay (sales, property, etc) and I'd guess that well under 1% of people could tell you within 5% how much they paid in taxes last year.

[manbearpig]

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do ppl really not know how much they pay in taxes? i mean if theyre on an annual salary and and its say 75k a year, dont they notice when they only get paid 55k?

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Of course they know. This entire thread is a strawman.

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LOL. I would be willing to bet that a majority of people could not even tell you the names of all the different taxes that come out of their paycheck, let alone the total dollar amount.