OESFD .. always b3bai?

[Antinome]

While I love this line when I can get the 3bai-
What usually happens:

OOP> I bet, Villian calls, I miss, blocking bet on turn, fold to push, or I hit, fake blocking bet, call NFD push.

IP> he bets, I raise pot, he calls, checks and I take free card if I miss, and pray for the straight, which will get paid off.

[Jouster777]

I think you have pretty good FE here (>50%) so I push too. If FE were < 30% I probably call. Absent reads that villain pays off too much when behind or is aggressive about pricing out draws.

Edit: Oops...forgot stack sizes being so short. I push here with almost any read

[poincaraux]

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I think you have pretty good FE here (>50%) so I push too. If FE were < 30% I probably call. Absent reads that villain pays off too much when behind or is aggressive about pricing out draws.

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Do you have some good examples where that worked well for you? I'm not sure how much FE I really need against most ranges, and slowing down just feels so transparent and weak.

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Edit: Oops...forgot stack sizes being so short. I push here with almost any read

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Hey, I did my part. I have a 230BB stack. It's not my fault villain hasn't found anyone willing to double him up yet. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Ness3]

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Even bigger ones where you think your overcards might be outs, or you think you might make a higher flush than villain?

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EVEN BETTER.

[Jouster777]

I don't have easily accessible examples but I have a spreadsheet I put these numbers in and it tells me EV based on the different variables (it assumes that villain will call a 1/3&1/4 PSB on turn&river when we hit turn and will call a 1/3PSB when we hit on the river).

For the given hand (EV for FE vs. size of villain's bet on blank turn):
Turn bet size_______FE=10_____FE=30____FE=50
Hero push flop______12.59______15.57____18.55
Vil check turn_______19.96
Vil 1/2PSB turn______14.78
3/4PSB____________10.57
PSB_______________6.37 (priced out)
Hero folds turn______9.67

I used 14.5 outs to discount for sets and higher FD's

[ChipStorm]

I've come to think of this line as standard when I'm OOP. But you have position in this hand and that changes a lot.

The first thing it changes is that BB didn't just raise you, he checkraised, meaning your FE has just dropped from maybe reasonable, to near 0.

The second thing is he will have to act first on the turn, so you can just call $9.50 into ~$25 and draw, knowing that, with all your outs, you need to extract very little more when you hit to make the play +EV.

I think one of the biggest reasons for the b3bai when you're OOP is to NOT leave yourself hanging out of your shorts on a blank turn, first to act, with plenty still behind and no decent play. But with position it all changes.

[bilbo-san]

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While I love this line when I can get the 3bai-
What usually happens:

OOP> I bet, Villian calls, I miss, blocking bet on turn, fold to push, or I hit, fake blocking bet, call NFD push.

IP> he bets, I raise pot, he calls, checks and I take free card if I miss, and pray for the straight, which will get paid off.

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It's a little hard for me to follow your syntax above. ARe you saying that Villains usually call the flop and block bet the turn? If so, why are you raising when you are surely getting 3 or 4 to 1 to just call vs. a blocking bet?

Or are you saying that Villains call flop and push your turn block bet? If so, why are you betting when checked to?

My experience here is that when Villains just call the flop, they usually check the turn. And they're either check-raising or check-calling, since most villains fold the flop if they are folding. Since neither getting a call or getting raised really makes money for you on a blank turn, you need to check behind every single time.

And it's absolutely staggeringly fun to stack some idiot that slow-played their 2-pair/set/AA on the drawy board when you hit the river. It's also tons of fun to stack someone that hits a 2-pair hand that makes your flush. People don't put you on the flush draw because bet-flop-check-behind-turn just looks like whiffed AK.

[poincaraux]

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I've come to think of this line as standard when I'm OOP. But you have position in this hand and that changes a lot.

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Position is good to think about, true, and I'm much happier with b3bai OOP. Good point.

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The first thing it changes is that BB didn't just raise you, he checkraised, meaning your FE has just dropped from maybe reasonable, to near 0.


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I don't agree with that at all. For one thing, my reraise is pretty big. I know it's only pot-sized, but a pot-sized reraise for the rest of his stack gets some respect.

I think he could be raising me with overpairs and flush draws, both of which might fold to my all-in. I've toned down my stupid aggression a bit recently, and I certainly wasn't in super high gear at this table, but people can expect me to raise pre-flop here most of the time and bet this flop almost all of the time, so I think his range for a CR is wider than you're indicating. That's certainly not to say his CR isn't strong, just that I don't think it's as strong as you do.

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The second thing is he will have to act first on the turn, so you can just call $9.50 into ~$25 and draw, knowing that, with all your outs, you need to extract very little more when you hit to make the play +EV.

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Yeah, that's what I was thinking about when I posted this. I dunno, though, I just haven't really been able to extract much in these situations when I take that line, especially when my flush hits, so I'm doubting it.

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I think one of the biggest reasons for the b3bai when you're OOP is to NOT leave yourself hanging out of your shorts on a blank turn, first to act, with plenty still behind and no decent play. But with position it all changes.

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So, do you actually play these that way in position with good results? How frequently do you mix it up?

[ChipStorm]

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So, do you actually play these that way in position with good results? How frequently do you mix it up?

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I'm a low-variance, weak-tight nit, so I usually just call and draw.

I am only now at a point in my game where I'm getting a better sense of how my play at the table causes different reactions in opponents -- specifically in situations like this, where if you mix it up, and push this hand, you make huge shania bucks and get all sorts of action afterwards. But I don't have a good enough sense of how the action shows up, what worse hands they play back with later, to adeptly capitalize on the shania.

[bilbo-san]

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So, do you actually play these that way in position with good results? How frequently do you mix it up?

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I'm a low-variance, weak-tight nit, so I usually just call and draw.


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I fail to see how this is lower Variance. True, it isn't your whole stack, but the variance on your flop call is still huge.

Abandoning a +EV move for a lesser EV move, when both are high variance, sounds like bad poker.