FH on Flop - But Villian has draw to possible Higher FH

[TheRempel]

THe important thing in this hand is not what you think he has or what he thinks you have. It's what he thinks the button has when he bets 1/2 pot on the flop and your friend minraises him. Had it been a pot sized bet followed by a minraise he would be showing a lot of strength and I'd agree that K8 is a very likely hand. Once he makes this gay little raise against someone obviously stabbing at the pot putting him on K8 is pretty awful.

As others said, bet the flop. Anytime you have an underfull you'd prefer to win the pot as early as possible.

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
if you were sb and you had 3 over cards to the 8 on the board.......are you going to fold to the shorty op?

[/ QUOTE ]Hi sqwisssssss - (By "shorty op" I assume you mean Janelle. I don't know where the "shorty" came from, but maybe there was a previous post I missed.) Assuming no king, with three over cards to 8, I'd also have three under cards to the flopped pair of kings on the flop. I'd have folded to Button's half pot bet. With AKQJ, I'd be about a 2:3 underdog to 88YZ and close to a 1:2 underdog to K8YZ. (36 to 64, as simulated). It would be pretty hard for me to stay in the hand.

[ QUOTE ]
i shove here too if i'm sb. i dont see what the problem is.

[/ QUOTE ]With a king plus three over-cards to an eight? If you do that, then you're not putting Heroine on a full house.

[ QUOTE ]
personally, i'll take op's hand all day. i know, espeacially with op's equity already in the pot, this is a winner in the long run........big time.

[/ QUOTE ]

$69-$1-$23.50=$44.50

By calling SB's raise, Heroine is risking $44.50 to possibly win
$5+$2.50+23.50*2+44.50=$99.

Heroine is getting 99/44.50=~2.2/1 or about 2.2 to 1 to call, all-in. Meanwhile it looks better than 2.2 to 1 as though SB has kings full of eights.

Or does he?

That's the dilemma.

[ QUOTE ]
then again, maybe i'm retarded.......but thats just the way i see this situation. i'm looking at the long run.

[/ QUOTE ]I don't think you're retarded. And it's interesting to me to read how you see the situation.

Buzz

[sqwisssssss]

yes buzz, i consider op (janelle) to be short.

rempel, as usual, described it best. button making a weak bet followed by sb min raise gave me all the read i need to know.

if i was sb, i would be very concerned if i held over cards to the 8 because janelle might have king 8. if i did, then i push because janelle is short and i still have outs. i could very easily have the best hand as well because i know that anyone with 69bb's might go off thin as well.

idk, this hand seems to be getting over complicated in what i feel is a standard situation. but thats just me. i always gamble against 69bb's no matter what side of the fence i'm on....... espeacially if i feel like i have a decent chance of winning and possibly holding the best hand as well.

maybe wazz is right.......i talk too much.

[blopp]

[ QUOTE ]

Janellebb7: $69


<font color="#cc0000">Janellebb7 raises to $22.5</font>, Button folds, <font color="#cc0000">SB raises to $80

[/ QUOTE ]

To late to fold now +fastaplaying trips A kicker is good at this level esp vs 70bb stacks.

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
rempel, as usual, described it best. button making a weak bet followed by sb min raise gave me all the read i need to know.

[/ QUOTE ]As I understand his post, The Rempel suggests that what SB thinks Button has is what is important.

I had already written:[ QUOTE ]
SB figures that Button will probably call a raise for as much as he just bet. And so SB, not expecting a check-raise from Heroine, makes a donk check-raise.

[/ QUOTE ]If I were SB, and holding K8YZ, I'd estimate that Button may have something but probably is simply betting position. (The Rempel phrases it as, "stabbing at the pot." Fine.)

Heroine has not yet check-raised. SB is probably aware of the possibility of a check-raise, but cannot see it coming. At this point, after Button has made a donk half pot bet, but before Heroine has check-raised, SB, if holding K8YZ, might easily be thinking that he might easily get a call of a like sized raise from Button. So SB makes a donk raise of the same amount as Button's bet.

SB's raise seems entirely logical to me. Stupid or not, that's exactly how I'd be thinking if holding K8YZ in the midst of this betting sequence. Therefore I don't see how that eliminates the possibility of SB holding K8YZ.

SB might not have K8YZ, but the betting sequence up to this point does not eliminate the possibility. I'm telling you, rightly or wrongly, if I had already checked, and then the betting went check, check, check and Button made the donk half pot bet, I would at that point play K8YZ exactly in the same way. I would raise exactly the same amount as Button had bet.

If I checked and the betting proceeded differently, it would be a different story. But in this exact scenario, that's exactly how I'd play K8YZ.

Next Heroine makes the big check-raise and Button folds. It would look a lot like Heroine had a full house, or at least a king with an ace kicker. And at that point I'd make an approximate pot sized bet. Wham!

You say SB doesn't have K8YZ and The Rempel implies SB doesn't have K8YZ. Maybe not. But unless SB thinks Heroine will run like a frightened rabbit, nothing makes as much sense as K8YZ.

[ QUOTE ]
if i was sb, i would be very concerned if i held over cards to the 8

[/ QUOTE ]What do you mean??? There's a pair of kings on the board! Do you think SB checks a king? That's a horrid play (except maybe as a change-up) in fixed-limit Omaha, and I suspect also in pot-limit Omaha. Do you think SB goes for a check-raise with a king? That's also a horrid play in fixed-limit Omaha. I have no good idea about pot-limit Omaha, but it doesn't seem very good to me, except for deception. You're writing about "over cards to the eight"... they're nothing here without also a king.

[ QUOTE ]
i always gamble against 69bb's no matter what side of the fence i'm on

[/ QUOTE ]Interesting.

[ QUOTE ]
i talk too much.

[/ QUOTE ]Not at all. This is interesting and you have a different point of view. It's very important for us to understand other points of view.

Buzz

[sqwisssssss]

buzz, over cards to the 8 means holding a king with 3 over cards in you hand to the 8 on the board.

buzz, this hand was played terrible by everyone unless sb has quads.

op should have opened the pot and start defining her hand......then its possible to get away from it if the button and sb get into a war.

as played, i dont see anyway of getting away from either hand no matter who's holding what.

buzz, this is my last post here. i am not good at posting. never have been. good luck bud.

[Elrazor]

this hand is so much easier to define if you just pot the flop - if you get 2 callers behind, or a call and a raise, then im shutting down and going into c/c mode or letting the hand go

i remember once i got paid by 2 retards on a QTT rainbow when i had QQ, i let them do all the betting and raising for me until we all got all in and they were both obviously drawing dead - but what other possible holding could i have other than QQ here?? its the same situation but in reverse

[Poker monkey]

Underfulls are a great way to lose lots of money. You're only slightly ahead of Kxxx and may be well behind. You're getting over 2:1 on a call, but SB is only doing this with AK or worse if he's brain-dead.

[Hattifnatt]

70bb and underfull vs 1 player = try to get it in every time.

[gordo16]

[ QUOTE ]
I think this is actually a fold specifically given your relationship with villain. He is minraising for a reason - whether that reason is that he wants to give you good odds (i.e. he is ahead), he wants to give you the information that you are beat already at a low cost to him (i.e. he has the nuts), he is trying to show weakness to entice you to raise, or he is just trying to get value for when he is ahead/pay for a free river early on. Most of these reasons indicate to me that you are behind. Given that you're never crushing and when behind are drawing dead, and the fact that it's an unraised pot, combined with the above means i can find a fold here.

[/ QUOTE ]

agreed.