bottom two - to the felt?

[Lucky]

I fold the flop.

This is very different than a couple of other 'bottom two" posts in last week or so. In those, villain voluntarily put money into pot. In those spots, with a similar K45 board you can put villain on two hand combos. So in those spots, I think you're ahead but vulnerable, especially as one the hands had flush draw out, so i advocating raising.

Here, as others have pointed out, villain can have anything.
Importantly, the number of hand combs he can have here is 14. So he's seven times more likely to have you beat, than in other spot. So anyway, i fold flop.

[dlv54]

here's a variant: instead of it being open-limped, lets assume it was open-binked. so, pfr makes it 20, two callers, i call in sb and bb calls. five to the flop. 100 in pf. i lead for 75, he makes it 350 to go. same analysis?

[DCWGaming]

[ QUOTE ]
I fold the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

seems like a no-brainer fold to me... You bet the pot, he raised 2x, a draw would just call here, wanting overcalls and a bigger pot. I can see someone checking AK preflop here (some people just do that) and going overboard with it after he hit...so thats an option, but i dont see it happening nearly as often as him having you demolished with a better 2 pair or a set.

On top of that -
Any K that falls kills your hand
If the board pairs, your hand is dead
any ace, queen, 8, or 3 will make you MUCH less optimistic about your hand, and even if you were ahead, you wont be able to be as aggressive.

So...when you are ahead, you're dodging almost half the deck and playing a pretty akward hand down to the river.

When you're behind, you're pretty [censored] far behind.

Unless i'm drunk and tilting, i fold this in a heartbeat...
IF im drunk and tilting i get mad and run the clock a little bit and STILL fold this hand.

[Big_Jim]

[ QUOTE ]
lets assume it was open-binked.

[/ QUOTE ]
Huh?

FWIW, I would usually call flop, lead turn, fold to a raise, if I were to continue.

[adanthar]

If he's smart, the least he puts you on is a decent king because you're generally not completing/betting K7 into 4 people. So realize that this raise is, at *worst*, something like KJ. He's not usually raising a draw - you are repping too much strength and he wants overcallers anyway.

Call/lead turn (and fold) sounds good, just folding is a little weaker than I'd usually do but I guess it's fine too, I could see calling and then checking the turn to see his bet size...anything except stacking off, because when a stack goes in you are behind.

[dlv54]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
lets assume it was open-binked.

[/ QUOTE ]
Huh?

FWIW, I would usually call flop, lead turn, fold to a raise, given reads.

[/ QUOTE ]

my bad, when i say open binked i mean open min raised. i guess what i am asking about is: how strongly does the fact that there are only 5 bbs in pf (i.e. that it was a limped pot) factor into how willing you are to go broke w/ this hand? so, if it was five handed w/ a pf pot of 10bbs, does that change how we play the hand (i.e. less room to fold?)?

[kurto]

I think your reasoning is flawed. I don't think a TAG who's sick of someone who is overly aggressive makes his move with a draw to 8 outs. He knows (1) he might not have much fold equity and (2) he can call and the overly aggressive opponent will likely pay him off if he makes his draw.

Someone who is sick of an overly aggressive play TRAPS the LAG. He doesn't get him to put his money in on a draw where he's likely the underdog.

Unless he's on tilt (which the OP did not imply), I'm not too comfortable with bottom two.

Also... just because a person is TAG doesn't mean he won't occasionaly limp a big pocket pair (like Kings) preflop.

I think the worst hand the TAG has here is a great King, but I think a small set or a better two pair more likely.

[Big_Jim]

[ QUOTE ]
Also... just because a person is TAG doesn't mean he won't occasionaly limp a big pocket pair (like Kings) preflop

[/ QUOTE ]
Villian is BB.

He has KK here approximately never.

[dlv54]

[ QUOTE ]
I think your reasoning is flawed. I don't think a TAG who's sick of someone who is overly aggressive makes his move with a draw to 8 outs. He knows (1) he might not have much fold equity and (2) he can call and the overly aggressive opponent will likely pay him off if he makes his draw.

Someone who is sick of an overly aggressive play TRAPS the LAG. He doesn't get him to put his money in on a draw where he's likely the underdog.

Unless he's on tilt (which the OP did not imply), I'm not too comfortable with bottom two.

Also... just because a person is TAG doesn't mean he won't occasionaly limp a big pocket pair (like Kings) preflop.

I think the worst hand the TAG has here is a great King, but I think a small set or a better two pair more likely.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is right on (except for the KK being in his range). you don't deal w/ an aggro maniac by reraising w/ 7 high (at least you shouldn't). but, do you deal w/ the aggro maniac by taking a stand w/ your kq? i was convinced if i won the hand after the turn/river that i woudl be shown kq, not 67/36 type hands. so, then you get to the fact that we aren't that big of a favorite against kq here, and likely could be dominated.

[viciouspenguin]

Bad idea to put it to the felt on the flop. Call... bet/fold turn, c/r allin is fine too.