is it legal to wager money on games of skill online?

[LetsGetItOn]

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i believe this thread is way off base. no matter what they claim, no raked/fee/seat rental game online is legal according to the Feds.


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The "skill" game sites have a "rake" per game played also, sure it's not like a cash games rake where its from every single hand but if you made this argument sngs would be legal.

[Artsemis]

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Have you read the text of the bill? The section I cited targets games "subject to chance." Since chess is not subject to chance, and poker is, the two cannot be compared.

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Of course it is. A rank novice can beat a grandmaster by making purely random moves. It's like a one in a trillion chance or worse, but it's definitely there.

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You don't understand what a game of chance is. A "chance" for something to happen doesn't make it a "game of chance". The game's outcome doesn't involve random events.

[Unicorns]

By those standards Magic Online is illegal right?

So we already got Microsoft and Hasbro breaking the law so far (unless of course they shut down before/when it's signed, which I don't really see happening)

[Copernicus]

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i believe this thread is way off base. no matter what they claim, no raked/fee/seat rental game online is legal according to the Feds.


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note the word "fee", A sng entry is a fee.

The "skill" game sites have a "rake" per game played also, sure it's not like a cash games rake where its from every single hand but if you made this argument sngs would be legal.

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[ianlippert]

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"Skill" games for money are legal in most states. The problem is that the definition of "skill" is completely bogus. Solitaire is considered a game of skill, while poker is not.

Just go on msn.com and look at the games there. Some are for real money, and have nowhere near the skill element of poker.

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Well I guess that online poker is illegal now we should all become professional Bespelled players. Whos with me? Mason when are you going open your Bespelled forum for us? lol, Bespellaments!

[ianlippert]

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By those standards Magic Online is illegal right?


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It seems like its okay if your tourney prize pools are static. That was the worst thing about magic tourneys. 300 player grand prix 3K prize pool, 1000+ player grand prix 3K prize pool.

[Copernicus]

MSN cash games are considered sweepstakes, which are goverened by state law. From their TOS:

"The rules governing sweepstakes, contests and tournaments with entry fees and/or prizes are established by individual states, not the federal government. If you reside in any of the following states, you cannot participate in fee-based tournaments with prizes: Arizona, Arkansas, Delaware, Florida, Iowa, Louisiana, Maryland, South Carolina, Vermont, or any other jurisdiction in which participation in the games and tournaments offered on this Site is restricted by law. VOID WHERE PROHIBITED OR RESTRICTED BY LAW. "

Its been several years since I had a legal opinion prepared on sweepstakes laws by state, and things may have changed, but the common feature was that if there was an entry fee there had to be an alternative "free" way to enter. "Free" allowed nominal fees such as "shipping and handling". So my guess is that MSN gets around the gaming laws by charging minimal "administrative fees" that are considered no more than nuisance level.

The skill element probably has little or nothing to do with the legality..just the amount charged and some sort of "sweepstakes" distribution method.

[geormiet]

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Guys, this is an interesting discussion, but it is headed off in a grossly unrealistic direction. The letter of the law is clear -- poker is a covered activity (you won't find the word "poker" in there, just like you won't find "roulette," but both are covered by Sec. 5362(1)(A) et seq.

So trying to "convince the government" to "carve poker out" as a "game of skill" is not something that can or will happen. Sorry.

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Is it really grossly unrealistic? To me it seems like it is possible to manipulate language to define poker as pretty much whatever you want it to be. After all, given time, poker is not a game of chance, and this can be proven empirically.

[Copernicus]

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Guys, this is an interesting discussion, but it is headed off in a grossly unrealistic direction. The letter of the law is clear -- poker is a covered activity (you won't find the word "poker" in there, just like you won't find "roulette," but both are covered by Sec. 5362(1)(A) et seq.

So trying to "convince the government" to "carve poker out" as a "game of skill" is not something that can or will happen. Sorry.

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Is it really grossly unrealistic? To me it seems like it is possible to manipulate language to define poker as pretty much whatever you want it to be. After all, given time, poker is not a game of chance, and this can be proven empirically.

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but the law doesnt distinguish between games of chance and games of skill...both entail "bets or wagers".

[geormiet]

Ok. I guess I should read the law first then . [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]