Thoughts and questions concerning Venezuela

[natedogg]

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Love how this got derailed into a debate about Chavez. Fact is that the guy is nationalizing major industries similar to how many communist governments begin. Sure, the poor love him and rich hate him. Who cares (unless you live there)? As far as his military build up, I don't see how this should be a concern for the US. They are going to still be light years behind militarily. These kind of purchases are more likely for puffery than anything else.

We can debate Chavez yada yada yada all day. The more interesting question is do you see it possible for a Castro-like communist regime to be a success with lucrative oil exports? In other words, are the inherent flaws of communism possibly overcome by constant influx of foreign cash?

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Not a chance. Mainly because like all communist regimes, it will continue to quash more and more freedoms until it becomes basically a slave state. And a poor one at that.

Secondly, those who decry the comparison of Venezuela and Iran are missing a very important point: Both nations severly violate the liberty of its citizens. I love how the hardcore leftists don't mind oppressive state authoritarianism as long as it's done with lipservice in the name of helping the poor. If it's done for other reasons its bad but oppression is good if it hurts the rich.

natedogg

[tolbiny]

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We can debate Chavez yada yada yada all day. The more interesting question is do you see it possible for a Castro-like communist regime to be a success with lucrative oil exports? In other words, are the inherent flaws of communism possibly overcome by constant influx of foreign cash?


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Norway has been able to fund a pretty lavish socialist lifestyle for its people from its oil and gas exports for some time without racking up signifigant public debt, so its possible that enough resources can allow that standard of living under a socialist regime. Major problem for Venezuela though is that Norway exports 9x as much oil per capita to support this system, and i believe are the #1 per capita exporters in the world, and even with that extreme amount of wealth they usually end up ranking out of reach of the #1 spot on economic growth, individual happiness, or education (or pretty much any attempt to measure best places to live economically). Venezuela just doesn't have enough.

[bobman0330]

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We can debate Chavez yada yada yada all day. The more interesting question is do you see it possible for a Castro-like communist regime to be a success with lucrative oil exports? In other words, are the inherent flaws of communism possibly overcome by constant influx of foreign cash?


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Norway has been able to fund a pretty lavish socialist lifestyle for its people from its oil and gas exports for some time without racking up signifigant public debt, so its possible that enough resources can allow that standard of living under a socialist regime. Major problem for Venezuela though is that Norway exports 9x as much oil per capita to support this system, and i believe are the #1 per capita exporters in the world, and even with that extreme amount of wealth they usually end up ranking out of reach of the #1 spot on economic growth, individual happiness, or education (or pretty much any attempt to measure best places to live economically). Venezuela just doesn't have enough.

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This is true. Also, Venezuela is going to get worse deals from oil companies, because they have worse infrastructure, less domestic know-how, and greater risk of government expropriation.

[kniper]

Just how socialist is Norway? Like just insanely high taxes?

[TomCollins]

Although Norway has high taxes and large social programs, it remains one of the more economically free countries in the world. This is not the case with Venezuela.

index of economic freedom

[Poofler]

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Just how socialist is Norway? Like just insanely high taxes?

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Highest income tax bracket is nearly 50% IIRC. This link breaks down their economic freedom score.

[kniper]

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Although Norway has high taxes and large social programs, it remains one of the more economically free countries in the world. This is not the case with Venezuela.

index of economic freedom

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yes, this is where I am getting at. communist regimes are notorious for calling themselves "socialist republics" cause they dont want to touch on the fact that economic freedoms have been curtailed. i think chavez is headed down this route, love him or hate him

[Arnfinn Madsen]

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Norway has been able to fund a pretty lavish socialist lifestyle for its people from its oil and gas exports for some time without racking up signifigant public debt, so its possible that enough resources can allow that standard of living under a socialist regime. Major problem for Venezuela though is that Norway exports 9x as much oil per capita to support this system, and i believe are the #1 per capita exporters in the world, and even with that extreme amount of wealth they usually end up ranking out of reach of the #1 spot on economic growth, individual happiness, or education (or pretty much any attempt to measure best places to live economically). Venezuela just doesn't have enough.

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Wow, some of this you must just have spitted out [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

I am Norwegian and have a major in Economy there. First of all, Norway doesn't have any public debt at all, it is a large creditor internationally, I don't know this for a fact, but probably the largest creditor/capita. It places ok in rankings of attractivy in establishing business, it places way ahead of many capitalistic nations due to moderate levels of corruption, moderate corporate tax etc.. It has scored #1 in productivity/labor hour in an international ranking, ahead of US and others. Also has big exports outside oil and other domestic businesses thriving, appx. 2% unemployment during high immigration, so without oil we would still be among the richest countries in the world. We rank out of #1 on economic growth (but 2nd and above US on GDP/capita), but we do very well compared to other rich countries, we just lag behind some of the successful emerging countries. That it is mainly oil funded is just a myth, remember that most of the oil revenues are kept away from the running economy.

As an anecdote, many Norwegian companies hire workers from Eastern Europe, then pay them twice or more what they earned at home, then crush their previous employers in the free European market. I know many people of Norwegian and other origins that have worked in businesses in several countries and they generally (with the clear exception of the US which is probably far ahead) say that other countries are 5+ years behind in effectivity and work methodic, including Germany, France, Holland and Great Britain.

Sorry for contributing to the derailing, but bringing it up in connection with Venezuela is just stupid, since Norway isn't dependant upon the oil, the economy would do great without.

[Arnfinn Madsen]

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Just how socialist is Norway? Like just insanely high taxes?

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Much of the insanely high taxes are on imported consumption goods. The tax regime is relatively good for the businesses, relatively good for the investor, but horrible for the individual worker. So it does not hurt business life so much, but hurts the purchasing power of the individual worker very much.

[kniper]

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Sorry for contributing to the derailing, but bringing it up in connection with Venezuela is just stupid, since Norway isn't dependant upon the oil, the economy would do great without.

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No seriously, thank you. Its totally relevant cause we are looking for comparisons.