40-80 AQ hand

[AragornX151]

Pages 159-160 are even better than 161 for analysis purposes related to this hand. Dave, how about actually giving a reason why what S & M say there and my thought process in this hand are not comparable given my description of game conditions, etc? I'm interested to hear.

[The DaveR]

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Pages 159-160 are even better than 161 for analysis purposes related to this hand. Dave, how about actually giving a reason why what S & M say there and my thought process in this hand are not comparable given my description of game conditions, etc? I'm interested to hear.

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You're much better off thinking about pot equity and just mindlessly value betting loose passive games than worrying about controlling the pot size and trying to induce mistakes. The mistakes are already there in their limping and peeling range. One of the best lines on 2+2 from years ago was, "People like to call. I like to let them."

[AragornX151]

I agree that mistakes are already there, but they're worse without 2-bets in preflop here. Additionally, their peeling ranges are often a mistake with $200 in the pot preflop, but not $400, so we're helping them there by raising.

At any rate, I can't see a single argument that completing is CLEARLY the wrong play, and I still think it's the optimal one. Dave, you would raise AQ every single time in this spot, game conditions essentially aside (barring some fluky game)?

[AragornX151]

Also, reading that set of pages a few times, the conditions of the game at Foxwoods essentially mirror the one described there. This wasn't like a 4-8 game where EVERYONE was in preflop with EVERYTHING, so you have to valueraise even AJ in that spot to maximize your ev.

[The DaveR]

They're going to call the flop with 5 outs whether you raise or not.

[emerson]

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[ QUOTE ]
Pages 159-160 are even better than 161 for analysis purposes related to this hand. Dave, how about actually giving a reason why what S & M say there and my thought process in this hand are not comparable given my description of game conditions, etc? I'm interested to hear.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're much better off thinking about pot equity and just mindlessly value betting loose passive games than worrying about controlling the pot size and trying to induce mistakes. The mistakes are already there in their limping and peeling range. One of the best lines on 2+2 from years ago was, "People like to call. I like to let them."

[/ QUOTE ]

Dave, your suggestion is a winning play that makes money. It just does not make the most money. All the players who called preflop are almost certainly correct to call your raise preflop, since they are now in for a half, and they will have pot odds to call on the flop with almost any weak draw.

Hands like AQ offsuit win by making top pair and forcing other people out. It generally takes stronger hands, like flushes and straights, to win against large fields. It is essential to take as much profit out of these potential draws as possible if you want to win with a "top pair" type of hand. In this case you have flopped queens with two hearts on the board. With a sufficiently large pot, someone holding nothing other than the KT offsuit with K of hearts would have odds to call... overcard with backdoor flush & straight draws. Do you want people with draws like that to have the proper drawing odds?

[poker1O1]

what's wrong w/ you people? no one's backing up Dave? I'm around average compared to the players that post in these stakes and this is a super standard raise here, and it's not even close to the bottom of the range that you should be raising in this situation. we are ahead of everyone's range 100% of the time.

[Hielko]

This must be the 100th discussion about limping hands like this... Limping is a +ev play, but raising is better against limpers with a wide range. Your equity edge is reasonable big preflop, and by raising you increase the mistake the loose limpers made. Seeing a flop for a single sb with a hand like 76o or something like that is not a big mistake: paying 2sb to see the flop certainly is! Force them to make this mistake. And not raising AKo here is a big mistake: you have a monster hand!

[AragornX151]

"someone dominated," yes. How about the other three? I'd rather raise 77 or JTs in that spot than AQo.

[AragornX151]

Hielko, you're wrong. If my raise was forcing them to call two bets cold, yes. But they are NOT making a mistake once they've called to call again; their mistake would be to FOLD after they've already called for 40.

I would never limp AQ first in, or after 1-2 limpers with position. THAT would be a significantly less +ev move than raising.