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#21
11-01-2007, 04:54 PM
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Re: Religion DOES Do More Good Than Harm
Nah, I don't buy it.
The big truth is that we don't know how society would be if religion was all but 'extinct', we only have the version now where some 85% of the world adheres to some form of religion. Where I come from about 50% of the populace are atheist, 50% theist and maybe a fifth of them practicing theists - I honestly am not seeing any large lack of happiness. I'm sure we could have focused all those endless supplies of money that goes into religion in something worthwhile, like hedonism. 
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#22
11-01-2007, 05:15 PM
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Re: Religion DOES Do More Good Than Harm
[ QUOTE ]
If in fact drug addicts were truly happier on drugs I would mean only slightly more than that. But most drug addicts aren't, so it is a bad analogy. [/ QUOTE ] The drug analogy is almost perfect. If drug addicts became clean and got their lives together, they'd be happier than they are on drugs. Of course, they would have to go through withdrawals, and they might never deal with the mental health issues that led them to drugs in the first place. Similarly, a religious person who learns to find fulfillment in reality instead of fantasy, and in life instead of hope for afterlife, will be much happier. But letting go of religion is uncomfortable, and they might never find personal satsifaction. Also, while individual use does no harm, there's great potential for damage in the distribution channels and in individual abuse.
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#24
11-01-2007, 06:36 PM
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A Not Nice Clarification
The responses here have forced me to elaborate. I have recently been reading some stuff about cognitive dissonance and related subjects. The idea that the human brain will go to great lenghths to keep its owner from suffering psychologically. Thes lengths include the thinking of clearly irrational thoughts. I've previously mentioned the well known extreme cases of paralyzed stroke victims who actually maintain they are not paralyzed. Less extreme examples might be someone who won't denounce alcohol because it would mean he must lower his opinion of his parents if he does. Or the senator who believes we are right to be in Iraq in because if he thinks otherwise, it means his earlier vote was foolish.
The point is that the more pain someone will suffer by thinking X the more preposterous not X has to be before he will give up his not X thoughts. (The only exceptions are, for the most part, people like scientists or professional gamblers who are punished badly for being wrong.) It is because of the above that I believe that there are more people than you might think who are suffering. (It is not because I am well versed in global sociology.) To believe that a specific religion almost certainly has almost all of the details right is clearly preposterous. Any intelligent, non brainwashed nine year old is capable of seeing that. Yet billions believe exactly that. If you accept my earlier statement that the human brain will allow even preposterous beliefs to seem rational if the alternative will result in misery, you must agree that the mere existence of all these specific religions (in this day and age) is strong evidence of a lot of unhappy people.
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#25
11-01-2007, 06:42 PM
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Re: A Not Nice Clarification
Your points are fine, but I disagree that most people have religious beliefs to prevent misery. They have them because they're stupid, brainwashed, non committed, or socially conditioned.
The fear and despair that people feel at the possible loss of faith has more to do with the natural fear of change than it does with suffering or comfort. People like NotReady, who actually know or suspect the atheist position is correct and continue to be religious regardless, are in the minority I think.
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#26
11-01-2007, 06:45 PM
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Re: A Not Nice Clarification
[ QUOTE ]
The responses here have forced me to elaborate. I have recently been reading some stuff about cognitive dissonance and related subjects. The idea that the human brain will go to great lenghths to keep its owner from suffering psychologically. Thes lengths include the thinking of clearly irrational thoughts. I've previously mentioned the well known extreme cases of paralyzed stroke victims who actually maintain they are not paralyzed. Less extreme examples might be someone who won't denounce alcohol because it would mean he must lower his opinion of his parents if he does. Or the senator who believes we are right to be in Iraq in because if he thinks otherwise, it means his earlier vote was foolish. The point is that the more pain someone will suffer by thinking X the more preposterous not X has to be before he will give up his not X thoughts. (The only exceptions are, for the most part, people like scientists or professional gamblers who are punished badly for being wrong.) It is because of the above that I believe that there are more people than you might think who are suffering. (It is not because I am well versed in global sociology.) To believe that a specific religion almost certainly has almost all of the details right is clearly preposterous. Any intelligent, non brainwashed nine year old is capable of seeing that. Yet billions believe exactly that. If you accept my earlier statement that the human brain will allow even preposterous beliefs to seem rational if the alternative will result in misery, you must agree that the mere existence of all these specific religions (in this day and age) is strong evidence of a lot of unhappy people. [/ QUOTE ] Well, cognitive dissonance theory states that a person rationalizes his acts thus changing his beliefs. He might as well rationalize being an atheist as being religious, and achieve the same happiness.
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#27
11-01-2007, 06:55 PM
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Re: A Not Nice Clarification
[ QUOTE ]
Your points are fine, but I disagree that most people have religious beliefs to prevent misery. They have them because they're stupid, brainwashed, non committed, or socially conditioned. The fear and despair that people feel at the possible loss of faith has more to do with the natural fear of change than it does with suffering or comfort. People like NotReady, who actually know or suspect the atheist position is correct and continue to be religious regardless, are in the minority I think. [/ QUOTE ] Its a continuum. The less intelligent you are, the less preposterous your specific religion is to you, and the less likely your belief is a symptom of unhappiness that would manifest itself if the religion was taken away from you. More intelligent people who believe these specifics are more likely to suffer if they were forced to admit to themselves that they are ridiculous to be so sure of religious details. (Unless that belief is stopping them from being great scientists or gamblers). Since it is mainly this category of theist that frequent this forum, I don't think I want to try to convince them of the error of their ways anymore.
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#28
11-01-2007, 07:05 PM
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Re: A Not Nice Clarification
[ QUOTE ]
The responses here have forced me to elaborate. I have recently been reading some stuff about cognitive dissonance and related subjects. The idea that the human brain will go to great lenghths to keep its owner from suffering psychologically. Thes lengths include the thinking of clearly irrational thoughts. I've previously mentioned the well known extreme cases of paralyzed stroke victims who actually maintain they are not paralyzed. Less extreme examples might be someone who won't denounce alcohol because it would mean he must lower his opinion of his parents if he does. Or the senator who believes we are right to be in Iraq in because if he thinks otherwise, it means his earlier vote was foolish. The point is that the more pain someone will suffer by thinking X the more preposterous not X has to be before he will give up his not X thoughts. (The only exceptions are, for the most part, people like scientists or professional gamblers who are punished badly for being wrong.) It is because of the above that I believe that there are more people than you might think who are suffering. (It is not because I am well versed in global sociology.) To believe that a specific religion almost certainly has almost all of the details right is clearly preposterous. Any intelligent, non brainwashed nine year old is capable of seeing that. Yet billions believe exactly that. If you accept my earlier statement that the human brain will allow even preposterous beliefs to seem rational if the alternative will result in misery, you must agree that the mere existence of all these specific religions (in this day and age) is strong evidence of a lot of unhappy people. [/ QUOTE ] This doesn't mean that religion does more good than harm. All it means is that abandoning religion may cause pain. The two are very different conclusions. Also, the avoidance of pain is not the only source of cognitive distortion - it's one of many. It's fallacious, then, to suggest that because cognitive distortion is observed, there must be pain avoidance happening. I think it does frequently cause pain for a religious person to become nonreligious, but your reasoning here is flawed. It's been demonstrated that people will hold irrational beliefs due to authority (people will believe all kinds of things when instructed by authority, and people will even create false memories based on suggestions from authority figures), conformity (people refuse to believe their very eyes - see the Asch experiments for one of the most striking examples of irrationality), usefulness (some salespeople may actually come to believe their product is superior, simply because it makes them more effective salespeople), and momentum (people don't like changing their habits, and are reluctant to change their beliefs in any way after a certain age). The phenomenon of religion could be explained by any or all of these factors (along with some others), not just with suffering. Also, gamblers and scientists have incentive to resist these biases, but they are highly susceptible to them just like everyone else. Being a gambler or scientist does not protect you from irrational thinking, only careful evaluation of your own thoughts and a critical eye toward yourself can do that. The greatest thinkers ever have made disastrously stupid mistakes due simply to their arrogance.
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#29
11-01-2007, 07:24 PM
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Re: A Not Nice Clarification
"Your points are fine, but I disagree that most people have religious beliefs to prevent misery. They have them because they're stupid, brainwashed, non committed, or socially conditioned.
The fear and despair that people feel at the possible loss of faith has more to do with the natural fear of change than it does with suffering or comfort. People like NotReady, who actually know or suspect the atheist position is correct and continue to be religious regardless, are in the minority I think." [ QUOTE ] The Twenty-Second Chapter Thoughts on the Misery of Man WHEREVER you are, wherever you go, you are miserable unless you turn to God. So why be dismayed when things do not happen as you wish and desire? Is there anyone who has everything as he wishes? No—neither I, nor you, nor any man on earth. There is no one in the world, be he Pope or king, who does not suffer trial and anguish. Who is the better off then? Surely, it is the man who will suffer something for God. Many unstable and weak-minded people say: “See how well that man lives, how rich, how great he is, how powerful and mighty.” But you must lift up your eyes to the riches of heaven and realize that the material goods of which they speak are nothing. These things are uncertain and very burdensome because they are never possessed without anxiety and fear. Man’s happiness does not consist in the possession of abundant goods; a very little is enough. Living on earth is truly a misery. The more a man desires spiritual life, the more bitter the 37 present becomes to him, because he understands better and sees more clearly the defects, the corruption of human nature. To eat and drink, to watch and sleep, to rest, to labor, and to be bound by other human necessities is certainly a great misery and affliction to the devout man, who would gladly be released from them and be free from all sin. Truly, the inner man is greatly burdened in this world by the necessities of the body, and for this reason the Prophet prayed that he might be as free from them as possible, when he said: “From my necessities, O Lord, deliver me.”77 Ps. 34:17. But woe to those who know not their own misery, and greater woe to those who love this miserable and corruptible life. Some, indeed, can scarcely procure its necessities either by work or by begging; yet they love it so much that, if they could live here always, they would care nothing for the kingdom of God. How foolish and faithless of heart are those who are so engrossed in earthly things as to relish nothing but what is carnal! Miserable men indeed, for in the end they will see to their sorrow how cheap and worthless was the thing they loved. The saints of God and all devout friends of Christ did not look to what pleases the body nor to the things that are popular from time to time. Their whole hope and aim centered on the everlasting 38good. Their whole desire pointed upward to the lasting and invisible realm, lest the love of what is visible drag them down to lower things. Do not lose heart, then, my brother, in pursuing your spiritual life. There is yet time, and your hour is not past. Why delay your purpose? Arise! Begin at once and say: “Now is the time to act, now is the time to fight, now is the proper time to amend.” When you are troubled and afflicted, that is the time to gain merit. You must pass through water and fire before coming to rest. Unless you do violence to yourself you will not overcome vice. So long as we live in this fragile body, we can neither be free from sin nor live without weariness and sorrow. Gladly would we rest from all misery, but in losing innocence through sin we also lost true blessedness. Therefore, we must have patience and await the mercy of God until this iniquity passes, until mortality is swallowed up in life. How great is the frailty of human nature which is ever prone to evil! Today you confess your sins and tomorrow you again commit the sins which you confessed. One moment you resolve to be careful, and yet after an hour you act as though you had made no resolution. We have cause, therefore, because of our frailty and feebleness, to humble ourselves and never think anything great of ourselves. Through neglect we may quickly lose that which by God’s grace we 39have acquired only through long, hard labor. What, eventually, will become of us who so quickly grow lukewarm? Woe to us if we presume to rest in peace and security when actually there is no true holiness in our lives. It would be beneficial for us, like good novices, to be instructed once more in the principles of a good life, to see if there be hope of amendment and greater spiritual progress in the future. « Prev Thoughts on the Misery of Man Next » This book has been accessed more than 480767 times since June 1, 2005. [/ QUOTE ] Thomas a Kempis-"The Imitation of Christ"
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#30
11-01-2007, 08:00 PM
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Re: Religion DOES Do More Good Than Harm
[ QUOTE ]
Those on this forum almost certainly underestimate the number of people who would live in quiet desperation without their religion. [/ QUOTE ] Eh I think I disagree with this. Aren't some of the world's most secular countries also the healthiest, happiest, and most prosperous? Are all these people actually living pleasant long healthy lives of quiet desperation? I also think you underestimate the ability of an intelligent person to get over it once he finally realizes he was wrong all along. I'm guessing the majority of atheists on this forum were once believers. Sure it hurts when you realize you've been swindled. But you move on. As for all the poor people starving in Africa, etc. - I suppose religion might give them some thread of hope for a better life after this one's over. But that's not a product of religion being good, it's a product of their horrible lives. Do something to cure their misery on earth and religion won't be so necessary to them.
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